Objectively "BS"? What does that even mean? You need to get a grip and stop your anger towards people who are feeling terrible. If you don't recognize the kind of imagery (the manly-man imagery) that is typically associated with your choice of words, please take a moment to reflect on it. You cannot say "I empathize with you. By the way your reasons for feeling this way are total BS" in the same breath and have any semblance of actual empathy. You feel yourself a clever wordsmith, I'm afraid, who packs a gun called "tough love".
It means that as far as things to commit suicide for go, a failing grade in some assignment or a rejection in high school, are not very important in the grand scheme of life. If someone attempts suicide over the loss of his family, it's more understandable than attempting suicide because you were rejected for The Voice.
>You need to get a grip and stop your anger towards people who are feeling terrible.
I'm not sure what you are projecting here. Qualifying something is not anger, and I'm not talking to people "who are feeling terrible", I'm talking to people on a HN thread. This is a discussion. It's not very polite to assume things and feelings for the other end.
>You cannot say "I empathize with you. By the way your reasons for feeling this way are total BS" in the same breath and have any semblance of actual empathy.
Yeah, because lots of people never took their friends aside (or vice versa) to try and help them overcome a dark patch, including suicidal thoughts and depression, by putting things in perspectove for them. So their version of empathy is "Don't bother me, go see a doctor and take your meds".
This conversation is like it's taking place in a bizarro alternative universe, when all suicide is caused by tangible chemically induced depression (which is the only form of depression in that universe too), and people never overdramatize their circumstances.
This might be an 21st century American thing, were individuals must absolutely remove any societal and personal causes for their situation. In these parts of Europe we find it OK for friends to help us see clearly what's trivial and what's not, and we had similar philosophies down to the time of Epicurus.
Whether or not somebodies sense of depression is triggered by something "trivial" or "stupid", it is likely genuinely causing them distress. Personally I wouldn't pull my friend aside and say, "Hey man you seem down, but the fact that you just broke up with your girlfriend is a total BS reason to be upset". Perhaps we are only differing in the way we like to describe the situation, but your language comes across as being unnecessarily "macho".
> It means that as far as things to commit suicide for go, a failing grade in some assignment or a rejection in high school, are not very important in the grand scheme of life.
Of course it's not that important. But that's not why they're killing themselves. That's just one more thing to push them over the edge. Behind it is a fundamental problem, and it's that problem that's making them vulnerable to something that seems trivial.
You are framing the discussion in a certain way, and then attacking other people for things they haven't said, and doing so aggressively and from a position of staggering ignorance. The fact you cite Laing is telling - he's almost totally discredited now.
1) when you find someone who is actively planning a suicide you have a choice. Keep them alive until they get to a professional, or treat them yourself. You wouldn't (I assume) stick a pen through the eye of someone having a heart attack, but that's the rough equivalent of what you're recommending people do to suicidal people.
2) treatment for suicidality has two components. i) keep them alive until meds and therapy can take effect. ii) give them meds and therapy. Suicide prevention is wider. If you're talking about suicide prevention as a public health measure you should probably state that. If you don't know the words to use to specify what you're talking about that should be a clue that perhaps you don't know what you're fucking talking about and should perhaps be a bit less arrogant.
3) as part of keeping someone alive until they can get help: there are things that we know mostly work, and things that we know mostly don't work. "Low grades? That's a bullshit reason to die! They're not that low; you can retake them; I got worse grades and I love my awesome job so your career path could be like that!" is something that we know mostly does not work. We know because we talk to survivors of suicide. Since there are 112 Americans per day who die by suicide we have plenty of people to talk to. If telling people their opinions was bullshit did anything to change their minds you and other people wouldn't be having this discussion - you'd have changed their mind or they'd have changed yours.
4) reactive depression is still depression. It's still an illness. The cure for reactive depression is to change the thing causing the reaction, but also provide evidence based techniques to build resiliance.
5) if just telling people they were wrong worked we wouldn't have had such a high deathrate from anorexia. About 1 in 5 people with this anxiety disorder die from it (this number is going down)
> be an 21st century American thing, were individuals must absolutely remove any societal and personal causes for their situation. In these parts of Europe we find it OK for friends to help us see clearly what's trivial and what's not, and we had similar philosophies down to the time of Epicurus.
There are reasons for the high death rate to suicide in most (but not all!) parts of the US, and this probably is not one of them. Decreased access to treatment; poor quality treatment; judgemental and stigmatizing views; increased use of criminal justice instead of mental health treatment; easy access to means and methods; etc etc.
