Hacker Newsnew | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submitlogin

The problem is all in this fragment: "as a vendor of dominant mobile operating system". We all know Apple makes more money than any other mobile manufacturer, and we all know they are culturally dominant, but in terms of actual market penetration, they own 20% of the global market. Samsung gets 27%, just to mention one competitor.

This makes it extremely hard to get any sort of antitrust leverage against Apple. We can keep screaming at them until we're blue in the face and nothing will change.



The fact that there's no legal remedy only highlights the inadequacy of the laws on the books.

Simple solution: require all OS vendors to permit opt-in, off-by-default sideloading.

Curate your app store all you want, but don't prevent your users from running whatever software they want on their own computers.

That would solve this.


Even Apple is allowing side loading from iOS9 iirc.


Via Xcode and only if you have the source code. Doesn't quite work for people trying to distribute apps that aren't allowed in the app store.


I dont imagine it will take someone long to work around that, they already gave you the tools in the form of bitcode.


That's all well and good, but Google can't exactly ask all their users to download Xcode and deploy some workaround to get a prebuilt Chrome binary bundled with Blink on their iPhone.

Jailbreaking it and installing it via Cydia would be easier.


This is basically the anti-tivoization clause of the GPLv3. Look at how much fuss was caused by that.


Yes. Destroying your platform's security model is exactly what we need governments to do.


I'm tired of people repeating that false dichotomy.

Such a policy hasn't destroyed Mac OS X's security model and it wouldn't destroy iOS'.


> We can keep screaming at them until we're blue in the face and nothing will change.

Well, unless you're Taylor Swift. Then Apple will do what you ask within 24h.

I know there's no Taylor Swift of the iOS software ecosystem, but I think that's attitude is defeatist. If more people complained about a lack of real browser choice on iOS, including developers and users, Apple would eventually have to cave.

Oh, and I don't think Apple had more than 20% of the U.S. ebook market, yet DoJ still sued them for price fixing - and Apple lost. So if we can find the will (political or otherwise), I think we can get Apple to allow other browsers.

In the U.S., where this case would be tried anyway, Apple has over 40% market share.


> If more people complained about a lack of real browser choice on iOS, including developers and users, Apple would eventually have to cave.

Nope. Don't you remember just a few years ago, when everyone was screaming at Apple for years to put Flash on its mobile devices? Apple never caved. Apple doubled down, because Apple was smart enough to figure out that Flash was a battery-sucking, security-ruining disaster.

Gee, kinda like allowing third parties to control the web browser on a mobile device would be. Fancy that!


> Apple doubled down, because Apple was smart enough to figure out that Flash was a battery-sucking, security-ruining disaster.

Apple doubled down because Apple was never going to concede to ANY party that might take their control away ever again.

Apple is never going to concede on this either because eventually people would then use the browser to escape the App Store.

You can scream until you are blue in the face and Apple will ignore you because unfettered Javascript is an existential threat to their walled garden.


DoJ sued Apple and a cartel of publishers which dominated the market: "The Publisher Defendants sold over 48% of all e-books in the U.S.". Big difference. Apple was central to the conspiracy to fix prices, but the main charge was really against the publishers.


Isn't Apple paying the fines? Did I miss that the publishers have to poney up too?


They settled.


I don't think the price fixing had anything to do with market share.

The publishers wanted bigger profits and Apple wanted a larger market share of eBooks. If anything they were attempting to break a monopoly.


This market share/mind share / profit share rhetoric changes nothing for the sizeable portion of Apple's iOS users. Last I checked there are half a billion of them - they have no choice but to use Safari.


Well, for one thing, they can stop buying products from a company that is openly hostile to consumer choice...


It's as if the people buying Apple products actually like Apple's choice…


Exactly. Occasionally I'll give Chrome, Firefox, among others a try, but I keep coming back to Safari. I hate the way the other browsers look, especially Chrome, and Safari is super quick while being easy on the battery.


Its being the only major browser that respects battery life is pretty much the only reason I use Safari. It hurts to see that "time remaining" indicator drop by 2 hours just because I have Chrome open.

I really miss Chrome's multi-profile support, but it's just so much heavier. Last time I used Firefox (admittedly ~3 years ago) it was even worse. System-wide beachballs. Much worse than having Eclipse open. That's what got me to switch to Chrome for a time, after being a FF user since the Phoenix/Firebird days.


That's because Apple actively provides Safari with advantages with regards to API access and performance. They royally screw over the other browser vendors.


Safari's engine, WebKit, is open source. There are no secret advantages. Other browsers are free to read WebKit's code and copy its techniques.


Not true.

Apple also owns the app store and the default configuration of the OS is moving towards only allowing app store software (has it already finished that transition)?

They can and will reject anyone who uses private apis that they themselves use.

In addition, because they own the OS they can require that a private API is only accessed by software signed by them.

It also could cause firefox to break on OS updates and would require firefox to keep abrest of those changes.

Here's a couple references:

Apple does use private APIs: http://www.wired.com/2008/02/firefox_developer_uncovers_appl...

Apple rejected firefox from the app store at some point for using private apis:

https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=636841


You can still install any software you want on your Mac. As that bugzilla page says, Firefox already uses plenty of private APIs, so this doesn't seem to be a big deal in practice. And Firefox was not rejected from the App Store, another XUL client was (IMVU).


> Safari is super quick while being easy on the battery.

That's not surprising, considering it's the only product not forced to use the public web view object in iOS. It's like Microsoft Office, which has always used private MS apis that other products running on Windows were not allowed/supposed to.


I believe they're talking about Desktop Safari, there's yet no Firefox for iOS to test.


I guess the same can be said about all the people buying Windows devices in the 90s. Everything is absolute, 1:1 after all - you buy something and you must like everything about it 100%!


I use Chrome on my Mac and my iPhone. An I missing something here?


The "Apple is not dominant" retort is very correct but also very frustrating.

Apple is dominant in the sense that they command an outsize portion of developer/consumer mindshare. So issues like this just get drowned out in all the fawning.


Unfortunately Judges wouldn't agree that 'iPhone users' are their own market and agree that Apple has a massive market share which their abusing.


Because if they did, "Tide users" and "Ford owners" would be their own markets too which would mean that all brands would be monopolists by default.

You don't get to throw anti-trust at Apple because you can't be bothered to switch to a different type of smartphone, just like you can't throw anti-trust at Ford because you don't want to drive a Chevy. The notion is absurd.


> Because if they did, "Tide users" and "Ford owners" would be their own markets too which would mean that all brands would be monopolists by default.

Which could (in a formal logic, not juristic logic, sense) lead to an argument why anybody should be allowed to install any software they want on their devices - a demand that I, as a hacker, fully support.


I can change anything on my ford as long as the resulting vehicle is road legal.


Not without voiding the warranty. Incidentally, the exact same thing is true of the iPhone.


Do you think it's right to expect someone to warrant something with work after you have modified it beyond how it has been designed to be modified?


Is Ford violating anti-trust law by not letting you change the software (GSP app, for example) that runs on their dash system?


What does Ford do differently with respect to software on their, say, entertainment system or ECU computers that Apple doesn't do with their iOS devices to allow you to draw this distinction?


You can easily replace the ECU of the car.


Meaning that you can easily replace an entire computer system with another entirely different computer system? What stops you from doing the same with your iPhone? (i.e. buying, say, an Android device)


Have you personally ever done so? I have, and it ain't so easy, especially if you are not just swapping in a piggyback system, but actually installing a whole new ECU.


Yup. I agree with you 100%. This discussion was brought up earlier this week on HN and someone mentioned how Samsung can't get in trouble for anti-trust because you can't install an alternate browser on their TVs.


I completely agree with you. But I would like to add that Apple holds most of the important users - those who are the most willing to spend time and money online.


Yeah, you could try to paint them as dominant in a specific market segment (rich people, whatever), but it would be very difficult. We're very far from the numbers Microsoft still has on the desktop, and a world apart from the 90%+ they had back in the Netscape-suit days.


9 out of 10 desktop computers still run Windows. 12% of those still run XP. There's still no 3rd option on the desktop; Linux has failed.

So, rather than fix a real problem, people start complaining about something a lot smaller: "18% of the world's phones run in a walled garden with a relatively modern browser."


While Windows XP can run Firefox ESR, iOS of any version only runs whatever it had at last OS push.

Also, Linux works fine for plenty of people, sure miniscule in proportion, but it hasn't failed.


Linux has always been fine for a minuscule proportion. It has failed to be a viable 3rd option on the desktop for 98% of the population.


But it has succeeded in being a viable desktop for software development for the web. I wouldn't call that a complete failure on the desktop.


98% of computer-using population will use whatever comes with the machine; Linux is viable but the hardware vendors are not pushing it, also because of Microsoft lobbying. On the other hand Android could be easily built on top of QNX and get the same market share.


I didn't ask anyone for an excuse.


Who cares?


People who think competition brings innovation. If 90% of cars were made by General Motors...

When you have 90% market share, you have a monopoly. It hinders innovation.


It does though. If Linux & Apple didn't exist, Microsoft would have a much shitty product. Kind of like apple's browser, since it doesn't matter that they keep it up to date since they have lock in.


Sounds convincing but a lie. Unfortunately, those pesky facts just keep getting in your way. Microsoft has always been the laggard in browser standards.

https://html5test.com/results/desktop.html

https://html5test.com/results/mobile.html

Sure, Apple has made Microsoft a little better but the monopoly that Microsoft has really means that they don't need to compete.


Linux makes browsers? I'm talking about the OS.


Um, you could paint them as dominant in a "specific market segment" such as the entire US, too:

http://appleinsider.com/articles/15/07/02/apples-iphone-gain...

Apple's mobile market share in the US: 43.5% Samsung: 28.7% LG: 8.2% Motorola: 5.1% HTC: 3.8%

It always makes me laugh when people still, in 2015, try to pretend that Apple isn't dominant and getting more dominant with time, in the mobile space.


The words "dominant" or "powerful" or even "market leading" are not even close to the same thing as a monopoly. And the difference is extremely substantive.


>we all know they are culturally dominant

And the reason they are is because they put user experience before developers or dogma.




Guidelines | FAQ | Lists | API | Security | Legal | Apply to YC | Contact

Search: