You already arranged a leave date with your employer, and you already went beyond what you were required to by trying to schedule that so you could help launch the project. You are not responsible for their failure to hit their schedules.

Trying to push your start date back with your new employer could also damage your upcoming relationship with them: they're more likely to care that the date change hurts their plans then that you want to do something generous for your current employer.

I think you should get out.

I remember a similar (but less serious) situation in which I went 2.5 yrs with 0 vacation.

I was feeling pretty much beat and close to burned out so I scheduled a vacation outside of the country having basically the max number of PTO days an employee can gather. Told my manager of my plans and he passive aggressively told me that sure, you can take PTO... the project is on fire and we'll launch next month but sure, you go on your vacation.

Did not go because I was genuinely scared about my career.

Project got pushed another two months. Tried to do the same, same result. Got pushed back again two months. And I was still there, working my ass off.

Rewards for that year were mediocre at best, although I worked my ass off.

What I learned from that is the fact that work never ever ends. There is no 'perfect' time for leaving. Even after launch, the team may need the original developers to fight fires all day and patch production to keep things running especially if the project was a death march or if the schedule was pushed back a couple of times.

Leave, try your best to not burn bridges and be honest with the current employer.

1. Don't work your ass off.

Especially, don't work your ass off expecting to be rewarded. It never happens.

2. Never sacrifice your personal life for work. It aint worth it.

> Especially, don't work your ass off expecting to be rewarded. It never happens.

I think this might be an over-generalization and that this is might only hold true for people who are farther along in their careers. I'm currently in year six of mine and I've been given a lot of great projects and early promotions (with subsequent pay jumps) from having been in the minority of people on a team that is working their ass off. These returns have, however, diminished with time.

If I had to hazard a guess I think this is probably because a more junior engineer working their ass off can show quick and obvious improvements to the quality of your work and time management skills, which start off as near excrement and iterate to "ok" over time.

The world is full of people waiting, hopefully, for their 10% yearly raise, repeated over many years. They'll only realize after 5 years that they could have done the same progression by changing company after 2 years.

>>> If I had to hazard a guess I think this is probably because a more junior engineer working their ass off can show quick and obvious improvements to the quality of your work and time management skills, which start off as near excrement and iterate to "ok" over time.

Lemme tell you how it usually goes. The people at your company around you probably:

1) wont notice your improvements (determining good is hard and they ll forever remember you as the junior who just joined)

2) have zero management support (depends on politics

3) have the organization turned against you (typical raise blocked at X% per year top and only once a year).

If one wants to get his progression noticed, one should go interview at other places and tell his achievements in front of interviewers who wants to listen to just that ;)

An early stage career is handled by moving early and often, to the next opportunities: https://thehftguy.com/2017/01/23/career-advice-and-salary-ne...

Importantly also - nearly all people will not offer a substantial reward unprompted. If you want something for working your ass of, you need to explicitly demand it, in specific terms (ex., don't ask for "a bonus", get a firm number).

A great many managers (arguably, most managers) are in the habit of making promises for rewards that they are either unable or unwilling to keep. My suggestion for people is to figure out which kind of people you're dealing with early on in a job - observe carefully how casually they promise things, and how frequently they live up to these promises. Calibrate your expectations accordingly.

This is a really good point.

This may be controversial to say but I suspect that this sort of assertive and open negotiation for future reward is part of the reason for the gender pay gap in software. For better or worse, I find that in most cases my male colleagues tend to layout more detailed expectations for compensation in advance of any salary renegotiation (promotion, raise, bonus, etc.) and to make themselves heard when they're not satisfied.

In the interest of full disclosure I am male so it could also just be that I am inexperienced with other biases relating to gender.

A job is just a job, they come and go. We trick ourselves into making them seem far more important than they really are, but ultimately it's just a means to an end. It's so easy to lose sight of that when life gets busy.

Things get better but you have to let time do it's thing too. Patience.

At this point, you can probably safely go to the ER and tell them you fear you'll kill yourself so that you'll get urgent help.

====

This stuff you are going through, it can get better. It doesn't last. You can learn to deal with panic attacks, you can change jobs, and so on.

You can send me an email at my username at gmail if you need to talk or call this number 1-800-273-8255

Anxiety is an absolutely horrible affliction and panic attacks are my personal definition of hell. The troubling part is that I understand how you feel. When panic attacks were part of my life, I often contemplated putting an end to everything. It wasn't that I hated life...it was that I hated the circumstances under which I had to live life.

However, don't hate yourself. You were brave and intelligent enough to listen to your body. Your body screamed at you to stop and you listened. Be proud of yourself because frankly, lots of people like you don't listen to their bodies and die of heart attacks when they are in their 30s. Or, they don't listen to their bodies and develop addictions to alcohol or heavy drugs. You listened to yours and you started the path to getting better. Let time do its work because frankly my friend, this is going to take time.

And please, don't kill yourself. I know that this job may seem like the be all and end all, but I promise you that it isn't. There are more jobs out there, and if software doesn't do it for you anymore, there are literally thousands of different careers out there.

I believe in you, so I know that you can get through this, but you may need some help or, at the very least, a kind ear. My email address is in my profile. Please use it - I will never judge you and will keep anything you say to myself, unless you tell me about a specific plan to kill yourself. Then, I am sorry that I have to say this, but I will do whatever it takes to keep you from fulfilling that plan.

Be safe. You are cared about.

If you are having such thoughts, please seek help. National Suicide prevention hotline Call 1-800-273-8255

As I sit here and hold 5,000 carats of Mount Baldy Sapphire, all spoken for (at $30/carat) I'm going to have to call shenanigans on that one.

I work my ass off mining and I'm rewarded every day with a killer view, fresh air, and a distinct lack of idiot customers and bosses, and then I get to hold some of the rarest and most precious materials on this planet.

"Never sacrifice your personal life for work. It aint worth it."

You do almost exactly that mining. It's well worth it if you have even 1/10th of a clue of what you're doing.

Yup, when you find a larger vein or pocket or deposit than normal.

"Unused PTO?"

Doesn't exist.

"Do you ever take your hard-won rocks to the guy and he tells you no, they're actually only worth 1/10th what you thought?"

Nope. I know my grades and qualities, so I know what I can charge, be it in rough form, slabbed, cabbed/faceted, etc.

Working for yourself or in more functional economies that actually have things like workers rights is a different story altogether.

In fact, I would say that setting in place systems that push employees to work unsociably heavily and forsake family and life experience in order to be rewarded is a staple of countries with extremely toxic working cultures, such as japan and china.

Employers in countries with good workers rights tend to react mostly with abject terror if they discover you've been, say, working weekends. They know what happens if the government or local unions get wind that unpaid weekend work might be some kind of defacto standard in a workplace.

Exactly this. In general, it is totally fine to have short bursts of overtime but longer periods clearly point to management fail. Either chaos or greed rule in that company and the best thing to do is to get out ASAP.

This is very, very true. It applies to pretty much any commitment that is bad for you: a bad job, a bad relationship, there's always a Very Important Reason not to do it right now.

See also: https://xkcd.com/1768/

A little louder for the people in the back.

Especially if you've already given notice to your current employer, go ahead and get out. If you haven't... I think you can justify leaving easily enough. You fully intended to stay on and finish, and I think anyone that cares enough to ask about this will understand.

Actually, I'd say it's relatively safe to go a step farther. Based on the description, the odds favor the interpretation that the poster will not be leaving one week before the deployment. The odds favor that either the poster is leaving several months before deployment, or several months before the project gets canned anyhow.

To the poster, I'd suggest keeping in touch with one of those 14 people and just ask them to tell you when it ships. You have a very good chance of discovering that you have absolutely nothing to feel guilty over when you realize nine months from now you still haven't heard from them, and it turns out that it's because it still hasn't shipped yet.... (Or they found another job too....)

Computers have been purchased, training partners assigned, HR booked, initial projects pulled out of the backlog.

I've had a couple of firm conversations where I basically said, "On Monday you should be with the company you want to be with and if that's not us, I understand and will start the hiring process again."

I wouldn't want them to bail but I would understand.

[edit] Also the OP is asking about the situation of going back for another extension so that is the context of my answer.

That said, I've also given developers another week to wrap things up, more time because of illness and family obligations, and a couple more weeks to start when they asked because "they were still burnt out".

It's not like I throw my hands up and the first road block and shred the resume.

If the person wants to stay to finish one thing -despite the terrible workplace-, that's actually a major display of [misplaced] commitment.

That's only half the coin - the other half is "would you rather restart the hiring process than hire someone showing red flags (not sticking to their commitments / showing up on time) before they even start the job?"

Sick? Family emergency? Funeral? Sure.

Can't let go of your old job? Hmm...

> From what I've read about the numbers this seems very costly.

From what I've read, so is hiring the wrong person and then having to fire them or have them quit - all that time wasted getting them up to speed.

On the other hand, they may be getting cold feet about leaving all their old colleagues and friends behind and about to accept a generous counteroffer that they haven't yet had time to formalize.

Or perhaps they remembered they really hate PHP. Or the state they'd be moving to. Or gotten a last minute job offer from someone else that they like way better. Or...

Plus, I'm always concerned when a developer ends their last job on Friday and starts Monday at our company.

I'm more concerned about the scenario where a developer has been working 12+ hour days on a release and then 50 or so hours later is now trying to ramp up on at our company.

First several weeks will be ramp-up anyway.

If I want to avoid coverage loss, I'll go with back-to-back employment rather than risk a few days and having to enroll in COBRA.

Also, be explicit with yourself on why you do not want to leave shortly before deployment? IMO the only reasonable answer is that you are a key player and want to help your current project through birthing pains.

If so, you can offer to help your old employer, pro bono, for a short time after the launch as your time allows. No guarantees, but you will try. If they do ask for help, work for a few evenings or a weekend and help. But leave now -- the chances that the latest slip of a badly managed project is the last are always slim.

IMO consulting for your old employer might upset your new employer ("whom would he support if both of us need him at the same time?). Taking a few calls pro bono, even at work time (which is not pro bono now, your new employer is effectively paying for it) is usually just fine with new employer. This shows you as a responsible person that is unlikely to burn bridges changing jobs, valuable member of the team (your old employer values you enough to ask for your advice, etc.).

My 2c.

They paid you to do the job before, why do it for free now?

I've been in this situation fairly recently. I pointed out to my old employer that I was "being nice" by consulting for them since my new job was keeping me pretty busy, so I told them the max number of hours I was willing to commit to, and how much I would charge. Come up with a reasonable cost of your time (hint: not below $100/hour) and find out beforehand how they want to be billed.

It's business. A business exists to make money, not to be your friend.

Six months later when I was still getting calls I felt trapped. So then I finally told them that it had been six months and I could no longer help them without getting paid. Suddenly they managed to get things done on their own. We are still on good terms; I even meet for lunch or drinks occasionally with those same colleagues 12 years later.

Since then, I always offer to help for a fee while they transition. None have ever been upset by that approach since they are professionals; something that in hindsight I wasn't when I offered to do it as a favor all those years ago.

Some employers have taken me up on this offer some have not. That is the motivation though. I don't WANT them to take me up on the offer; I've just quit so I want to move on. I also don't want to burn bridges or leave anyone in the lurch.

I got maybe 5 calls of no more than 1 hour each and spent a few hours in SSH session (restoring a service I wrote for myself but put on the intranet which I thought no one but myself was using; when my workstation was wiped apparently enough people wanted it back). I got a "we owe you a beer" after that which I never claimed as I am halfway across the US now and that was it.

As I took no money I felt very comfortable choosing dates and times that were convenient for me. They would email me and I would set up an hour for a phone call or an ssh session within the next few days. If I took any money I would feel pressure to respond quicker. Anyhow, this worked for me, but obviously YMMV.

To elaborate on my personal experiences.

It was never about making money, but always about smoothly severing ties. In my first experience both I and my new employer were frustrated as I was receiving calls every week for more than six months. The old company and the new company were different, but they had close ties which is the only reason my new job tolerated that I was spending hours they were paying for on someone else for free. When it was still going on for six months I was advised by my current boss to advise them I would have to charge to continue to support them, and see what happened. At that point they said they understood and would discuss it with their superiours. It turned out that with money as a motivating factor they finally were able to get by without me.

With another employer I knew that a standard two week notice for them wasn't long enough as I was their lone sys admin, but anything longer would not have been ok for my new employer who had just lost a key employee on a major project and needed someone that could step in ASAP and hit the ground running. In that case I offerered that I could help out in the evenings or weekends for a reasonable hourly rate that was still above my normal hourly rate. They were glad to have that offer there and said they would only call me if they absolutely had to. I never heard a word from them until I got a call that their Exchange server (which I had repeatedly advised them for more than a year needed to be replaced, but they were too cheap to do so) had crashed and they urgently needed help. I came in on a Friday night after getting off work and then I worked straight through the weekend to setup a new server and recover all of the lost data. They were more than glad to pay.

With another employer I was the leadon a mission criticial financial system I gave them a longer than usual notice when I was leaving to give them extra time to prepare for my departure. Then I spent my last month doing nothing but trying to make sure everyone knew what was needed before I left. I gave them the same option, for a fee they were welcome to call me whenever they needed. Almost six months went by and I didn't hear from them, then I got a call when they realized no one knew how to handle their end of year cutover. I walked them through it in an hour long call. They were very happy to have the help and would have paid; I told them not to worry about it since it was only an hour and they hadn't been pestering me in the past, but that if I got a call next year about the same issue I would have to bill them for it. No bridges were burned there; they were happy and occassionally I have run in to some of the higher ups and they always tell me how they would love for me to come back if I ever decide I need a change.

In my experience doing something "as a favor" is the fastest way to get the person you are trying to help to act in a entitled manner.

Charge a healthy consultancy fee (hint: it's more than your ex-wage cause you need to cover taxes, your self-employed admin costs, and motivation fees). If they need you enough they'll pay it and if they don't then you're away guilt-free.

Totally. You've given notice, and accepted an offer (and start date) elsewhere. You're done. Walk away, or accept their dubious power over you.

If a relationship partner did something bad enough that you dumped/divorced them, but they demanded that you stay a bit longer because they hadn't finished doing the thing you disliked...

Take your power back. Walk away.

If you leave, it would give the management one more valid excuse to push back the dates further, this is what they might be looking for anyways.

But it doesn't sound like a very nice environment, so expect to be their new scapegoat as soon as you've turned your back.

1. It doesn't sound like your work was properly respected.

2. It doesn't sound like you were supported by your previous employer.

3. It sounds like your new employer needs your help just as much as your former employer.

4. You committed to something to the new employer, not just to the former employer and the only one out of the three of you that is responsible for this delay is your former employer.

5. They have enough other developers, the consequences of you leaving are maybe a single extra day of development.

Leave.

I worked some weekends for a project at my last company because it was urgent (it was behind schedule and they "burned the ships"). Then they canceled the project and fired the lead developer on it.

[Edit]: And after I gave notice, I was given more flexibility so I worked hard to code some desperately needed changes to a neglected project core to the business. The changes I made in the last two weeks were so valuable that the internal customers agreed to shut down the floor for a while in the middle of the day to deploy my changes. Then, on my way out the door, the company told me that they wouldn't pay out my unused PTO.

I got it returned with a few choice emails.

On the first case, the project was so mismanaged that eventually even 3 months later the project was still not launched, good thing I didn't stick around.

On the second case, the project was delayed by only a couple weeks. My past employer just hired me on contract for the few hours of support they needed me for the production launch. If your role is truly critical and you still want to help, take a few hours on the side for them, and ensure you are paid properly. Nobody ever considered me irresponsible to leave at the time I wanted to leave. If your employer runs out of money, they won't hesitate to lay you off as soon as possible, regardless of projects. That works both ways.

I just wanted to reinforce this. In the vast majority of cases, if it's more convenient for your employer to let you go than to keep you, they'll do so. The team never 'takes one' for you. Keep this at the forefront of your mind when deciding whether it's worth 'taking one for the team.'

You did the right thing -- you gave these people proper notice, and agreed to postpone your exit until the release date on your current project (i.e. already making a significant concession to your current employer, at the expense of your next problem). After which your current company apparently screwed up (as they seem to be in the habit of doing), and botched the release date.

But once again: you did the right thing, already. Therefore, at this point, you owe them nothing. You certainly don't "owe" it to them to discount your next employer any further -- and not only that, it would, clearly, be unprofessional for you to do so (or for your current employer to ask you to do so).

And not only that -- your next employer might very well (and very understandably) get fold feet, think "this guy has attachment / commitment" issues -- and withdraw their offer. Employers do this all the time, even without a good reason, or any reason actually. But in this case, you'd be giving them an awfully tempting reason.

So please don't do that.

Either way, on balance, I hope he won't risk his next job for the sake of (incrementally) cleaning up after the messes created by the management of his current job.

Like watching my cellmate of two years have his sentence commuted. I'd miss him, but expecting him to stay to keep me company is ridiculous.

Get out.

No healthy minded person will have any ill will toward you for leaving when you said you would. And for anyone who does, I believe rejection is the Universe's way of helping me find where I truly belong.

Why do we feel loyalty to a company and management that makes bad decisions and then punishes us by making us fix their mistakes? Working overtime, weekends.. because someone else made bad decisions. And if they're anything like the managers I've known, they're blaming the developers for not getting things done on time.

Having been there myself, I will never give my loyalty to a company again. You pay my salary, I work the hours we agreed upon. Literally every hour I work extra, I expect to be compensated for. Over work should always be incidental. If they treat me nicely, I'll probably won't job hunt for something else. If they treat me like shit, whatever the reason, I'm gone. If they make me do a lot of work I don't like, I'll tell them honestly and if nothing changes, I'm gone. Life's too short and IT is in too much demand to put up with that stuff.

Best of luck your new endeavor, and I hope you get it all worked out to everyone's satisfaction.

Here in France, and probably lot of places in Europe, a 3-months notice period is required after informing your employer of your resignation. During this period, you finish the things you started, they find your substitute, you train your substitute, they write all the legal papers properly, you prepare for your next job and so on.

3 months can be long but the working conditions become super cool (e.g. 10-4 instead of 9-5).

The same conditions apply if your employer fires you (which is relatively rare, unless you commit serious misconduct). You stay 1 or 2 more months in the company after being informed, so you can find another job before leaving.

(Note: during the first months in the company, you are in a trial period so these rules don't apply. You leave when you want and they fire you when they want.)

(I have a fairly biased view, half my colleagues are people who have left France partly because they preferred the freer job market here.)

Here in Canada in certain professions there are additional requirements. As a licensed engineer you cannot just leave at any time; you cannot put your projects in jeopardy. (Software devs / "engineers" are not generally licensed engineers.)

It's a decent system, for a lot of jobs 3 months is too much.

The rules about dismissing staff make it difficult to dismiss staff, and aren't much affected by the notice period.

The 3-month long notice period does indeed sound insane, but it's not the reason it's hard to hire people. In fact, you got cause-and-effect the wrong way around.

It's hard to fire people, which is why employers are hesitant to hire (and why the contractor business is so large). So as an employee, you're relatively safe. In return, the employer is relatively safe from an employee up-and-leaving, thanks to the 3-month notice.

Of course, the secondary effects are huge: because the hiring market is less fluid, people will stick around bad situations longer, both employees and employers, with expected consequences. I won't detail them here, in case my anecdotal experience doesn't entirely match country-level trends. For example, it can be argued that if you're more strongly tied to a job you'll make more effort to improve things rather than just leave.

Yes that's precisely what I meant. I said employers were reluctant to hire, not that it was hard. Not sure what made you think I disagree with this.

Seriously? You are required to stay for three months? That seems like it could be suffocating in some instances.

If your employer refuses to apply the notice period, you are entitled to financial compensation (3 months of salary).

https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F2883

As "Junior Developer" in Britain my notice period was one month, it increased to three months when I was promoted, and has stayed at three months in successive jobs.

If my employer wants to make me redundant, they legally must give one week's notice per year employed. However, my contracts have increased that to one month (Junior) and three months (after). It's their decision whether they make me come in to work or not.

(Also, paid holiday still accumulates, so 3 months probably gives another 3-4 days holiday.)

The only exception is gross misconduct, e.g. assaulting another employee, or stealing from the business. Employees can be dismissed immediately in this case, with zero notice.

http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=4096

In france; its 3.

It sounds like France has a national (presumably minimum) notice period. In the UK, and I imagine many places (but then, I'm sure we all imagine 'many places' are like our own...) it varies, and typically is longer the more senior you are or time spent at the company (as obviously there's more 'wrapping up' to do, like you describe).

OP describes having given notice, pushed back by a week in order to finish the project, and it still not being due for completion on time. We don't know how much notice they gave initially, perhaps 3mo exactly as you're accustomed to, perhaps not.

For example, in New Zealand many employment contracts have an abandonment clause that basically says if you don't show up for 3 days, the contract is terminated and you've forfeited any accrued leave or other benefits they might have owed you otherwise.

But more seriously, how do they hire a replacement in that time period if the replacement also (presumably) needs to give three-months notice?

However, there is an out in that I can be terminated immediately if I commit a serious infraction (steal from the company, forge documents, or something of that nature) or if I don't show up at all.

Longer notice periods can be agreed on, but then it has to be mutual, e.g if they double my notice period, their notice period is also doubled.

I've also seen +1 month for every 5 years of service, so 9 years = 3 months, 11 = 4 etc.

3 for front-line staff seems excessive

If you were the sole developer or on a super small 2-3 person team, I'd empathize with your reluctance more, though I'd still advise it's time to get out. It's not really that you owe the "company" anything; it's that you don't want to leave your teammates and friends in a terrible situation, etc. I get it.

But being a member of a fairly large team... nah man, you should feel zero, absolutely zero guilt about leaving, IMO. I would feel no negativity towards you as a teammate. If you are truly irreplaceable on a team that size, it's just another sign that this project is being mismanaged. GTFO! :)

I was the sole developer of the GUI control system for some hardware, with another guy doing firmware etc. The project was poorly specced, poorly managed (overran by years) and my colleague would be dogmatic and argumentative whilst at the same time writing poor quality code and taking long lunches (yes we do have a deadline) and doing errands during work, or sitting laughing at his monitor all morning.

I did my best and did what I could to meet deadlines (yes of course I'll stay up til 4 in the morning writing software whilst on holiday with only a week's notice for a show) but in the end I had to fight for pay, fight to get my lost holiday back, had to interview my replacement (interviewed a load of people, that was odd), and as an act of thanks was kept working late on my last day with no formal goodbye.

So in the end your current employer won't care (they might be under more stress for a bit). You may have personal pride in work and want to help out due to the kind of person you are (helpful) but you are just a number to them, sadly. Obviously some employers are better (I worked at a great company once that truly valued me and were really great) but in general, they won't reward you. Were you ever rewarded for staying late? Did they put more pay in your pay packet?

Leave.

  Jealous. I would want to leave too and would be pissed that I hadn't found a new job yet.

  Incompetent. I've already lost this developer due to lack of management skills. Seeing them leave in these circumstances would just underline that good people quit bad managers. I'd be scared that I'd get fired next.

That said, the end of a project during or after a production launch isn't necessarily a bad time for this. I left my last job the exact same way. Unless you were the only person on your team with any experience of knowledge of core components (which means it wasn't a well structured team anyway), it can work out fine.

In my case, I had done 100% of the payment/billing system (but 1/2 others knew about all the requirements from the planning stages), and probably 75% of the devops + automation (fully automated infrastructure provisioning and updates). It worked out fine.

They've overwhelmingly chosen at-will employment, and they shouldn't be upset when their employees actually take them up on it. Two weeks is already an incredible courtesy when you can be fired at any time for any reason (as long as they're not stupid enough to say "yeah, we're firing you because you're black").

At the end of the day, it's a business decision. Do what's right for you. If the management of that company don't like it, that's their problem.

The only exception I'd make to this would be if the management at the current employer are actually close personal friends and you want to avoid damaging that relationship. Otherwise, screw 'em.

Now, having said that, do your best to answer any technical or operational questions that your co-workers need help with. Within reason, of course.

Contracts are what binds you. And I know few companies that extend their loyalties beyond the contract except maybe the foreign legion.

Be as morally entitled to your company that they have been morally correct to you if you have a conscience. And what you describe is a death march. You are probably leaving the company because of a death march. Why would you insist being nice to a company obviously making their coders' life a hell because of their management mis-decisions for which they are fatly paid?

Except of course if you are the Légion Étrangère or special forces. In this case, well, that is their sense of abnegation that makes their reputation and make them trusted. But I guess you are no special forces sent on a secret mission where you risk your life.

And that is the reason why they suffer, so we have this kind of rights.

Let's say this contracting agency has an established contract with a weekly renewal clause, either party can nullify their relationship at the end of any given week. C has been working with company "A" for a while now, originally company "A" represented itself/the work it was asking as something slightly different but C went along for various reasons that made sense at the time.

After a while, "C" starts becoming a more desirable firm but (for whatever reason) it cannot expand. A new company, "B", approaches "C" with a contract that isn't just more lucrative than the existing contract with "A" but has work that will raise the overall morale of the employees of company "C" in intangible ways that money can't buy.

So, "C" looks at the roadmap for work with "A" and picks a good date for both of them for "C" to begin it's contract with "B". "A", doing one of the things that motivated "C" to leave in the first place, has let deadlines slip in a way that makes the planned departure timing horrible.

Would you tell company "C" to deprive it's employees for a few more weeks, or more, because "A" can't manage things properly? Or do you think "C" should respectfully follow-through with their original plan?

If you weren't emotionally involved I think the answer would be a lot clearer to you.

In the absence of that kind of contract, you have no obligation whatsoever to stay on the job any longer than you want. So long as you leave gracefully, give notice, and behave professionally, you can and should switch jobs whenever it makes sense for you personally.

This is the flip side of at-will employment.

Only companies can be bound in such a way.

The same can't be said for being hit by a bus.

So I think "bus factor" is a much better name for it.

Leave, don't feel bad, and no manager worth their title will think it reflects poorly on you personally or professionally.

I think there's two ways that a manager could look at this. One way is they could be personally affronted and take a negative attitude about it. The other way would be a little more introspective, and understand that you leaving was a symptom of other problems, and in that case they might be a little saddened but want to focus more on making changes to prevent something like this happening again.

At the end of the day though, the way I would look at this is that it's way more in your best interest to make your new employer happy than to make your old employer happy. There's a lot more downside to starting off on the wrong foot with your soon-to-be-current employer, than leaving on the best note possible with a former employer.

Product management kept adding scope, both features and infrastructure improvements, to the point where my plenty of notice was not enough to actually ship and they asked me to stay a bit longer.

I finally just left when my extended time ran out.

I feel a great responsibility to deliver when and what I say I will. I, and you, should not take responsibility for delivering what other people say we will.

Source: I'm a business owner who likes to take care of my employees.

Companies can't care for their employees because companies aren't people and don't have emotions. People in the company may care about you. And you may care about people in the company.

Once a business gets large enough, the people making the policies can't (or usually don't) care about you because they don't know you. The people who do know you can't change the policies.

And that's why I find the idea of loyalty to a company absurd.

They will have more fires, and they'll have people to put them out. It can suck not finishing something you started, but you made that decision when you took another job and gave notice.

"Weeks of programming can save hours of planning."

How your fellow developers feel about you is going to have a lot more to do with the relationships you've built with them over the months than the timing of your departure.

You don't owe them anything you scheduled leaving when the app was supposed to be in production. The schedule could keep slipping.

Plus your new employer is where you need to keep things positive. That's where your future is.

Fellow devs will understand.

You will look back on this in 6 months and be thinking why did I even think about hanging around any longer.

This is business, not a friendship. Leave on time.

If they don't want to move date then they can't blame you for not staying on to see things go live, since they made the decision. And if it ever comes up in interview for future job (which is unlikely) you can explain it wasn't your choice.

So: ask new employer to change date. If they're not OK just start new job as scheduled, it really doesn't seem like it's your fault since you did your best. And given that "business dramatically added scope and was changing requirements and demanding devs work nights/weekends to accommodate" if anyone is at fault, really, it's management at old company.

As the new employer, I'd be distinctly annoyed if you pushed back a week; they're probably counting on you and starting to schedule new starter stuff. That could colour an entire working relationship badly.

Good luck with the new job!

It's your life, and you have to live it. If this is the right move for you, then you have to take it.

If you were irreplaceable to your employer they would have made a counteroffer when you left your notice.

It's great to have standards, but it's not great to try and save business owners from themselves.

If you are not irreplaceable then your leaving won't matter, and if you are, your former employer has learned a valuable lesson.

I left a similar situation 12 years ago and it was the best decision I ever made and no one blamed me for leaving. A year later the company laid off all the developers - and it wasn't even a startup, they just decided to stop building software because it wasn't their core competency.

If I were your boss at the old job I know you'll be leaving anyway and by the look of the project you're going to be the least of my problems. Maybe I could ask you if your new company is looking for somebody else. If I were your fellow developer: same thing.

I would take care to work at least 8 hours in any calendar week, and work another 8 hours after all PTO had been used. After that, I would quit immediately--at 4:30 PM on that last day--and let my new employer know that I can now start before the previously arranged date.

The careful use of time off is to maximize the amount of time being paid by the old employer with the minimum amount of effort wasted in throwing old tires onto the fire. If you are a salaried exempt employee, you have to be paid for the full week if you worked any of it. The PTO is just to mimic vacation, sick leave, and docked pay for not working a predetermined amount of hours in a week. If you leave with a positive PTO balance, unlike with vacation, the company does not have to pay you for it. So use it all up. Then work a bit more, so the company can't argue your quit date was the last day you actually worked.

Depending on my financial situation and the corporate policies, I might actually start work at the new employer while burning through my leave at the old one.

I would also try to find out if my new employer needed any more good people, and discreetly try to poach my most competent and amicable co-workers on my way out the door. If you're hitching a ride to flee a sinking ship, it's only fair to throw some flotation devices behind you as you sail away.

A company that mismanages its tech professionals and its projects doesn't deserve diddly squat from you. If I were your new boss, I'd be glad that you're not spineless. That's like wondering whether the next person you date will think poorly of you for dumping your abusive ex. If they're worth keeping, they will applaud you for it.

The project that I was on was originally supposed to ship in December. Then it slipped to January. People started working 80hr+ weeks, though I said no to that. In January, there was a big, dramatic meeting with execs giving speeches, saying we needed to push it back 2 months instead of 1 month to make sure we had enough time to "do it right". March came and guess what? They pushed it back again another month. This time so quietly that it was like a top secret rumor or something. They did finally manage to release it in April, still as a total mess. I turned in my notice the week after.

Luckily for them, that's about when I was planning to leave anyways. If they had pushed it back again, I wouldn't have felt any hesitation in leaving before the release, because I have my own plans that I'm not about to change, and they have no clue when they're actually going to release.

In your situation, do you have any confidence that they won't keep pushing the release back for months and months? I wouldn't.

I expect whoever manages or hired you there originally will not like it. But given that they're responsible for this state of mismanagement and the only thing that would make them happy is you working killing hours for pocket change, I wouldn't be worried about what they think. You can bet that anyone else in the industry who knows of this knows what kind of group they run and wouldn't hold it against you for leaving like that.

You have a new job to think about, and I'd be a lot more worried about what your new manager thinks of this. I think they would not like it at all if you tried to push back your start date to meet the schedule of a mismanaged project that they have no assurance won't push further back.

Typically this is what happens on bad projects. Developers stay until they finish the job and then they leave. One of the best ways to evaluate the success of a project is to see if the team is stronger and more empowered after the project. If people leave, it says a lot.

Write down your thoughts and feelings on how things went with this last job. Then, sleep on it and revisit the next day, trying to remove blame and anger from it. Your goal should be to give your old employer actionable steps on how they can improve. They probably are not fully aware of the way it impacted you. Try to see things from their point of view, be empathetic.

Then, tell the old employer as early as possible that you are leaving. It is better to know now and be able to make plans for your absence than to know the day or week before launch.

Be prepared to be yelled at and offered extra pay, etc. If there is something that could make you stay, write down those things so you are prepared to make a clear choice and not an emotionally driven (perhaps by guilt or obligation).

Be generous to your old employer and to your new one in this way.

ah - NO!

I agree with the overall intent. But more often than not being "lectured" to will not be well received.

I do agree with the write-it-down bit because it is important for the career planning for the future and to learn from past mistakes.

But this info is for your private files. Not shared with anyone and definitely not on the web.

Everyone wants to believe that they have some secret insight. (Look at everyone telling Tim Cook how to run Apple) Chances are the "insight" isn't that insightful - it probably is wrong in either assumptions or conclusions.

My generosity towards the old company would have been burned to ash while working the nights and weekends without additional compensation. The only generosity you might possibly owe is to your fellow skilled laborers, who could be approaching the company from a stance of ignorance.

If I were you, I'd just tell some convenient white lie that gives you a good out without burning bridges.

Your top priority should always be you, not the company nor your co-workers. Do what's best for you.

In my experience there are often a large set of work that is left when a big production release happens - from the minor like bug fixes and features that were deprioritized to the bigger and often more urgent ones like performance problems and non-validated 'shadow beliefs' being tested.

I would recommend sticking with your original plan, but making sure to spend the next week or two to mentally prepare the team that they are likely only just finishing the boring 1/3 of building software and going to start making an impact in the 'real-world'.

In return they owe you a salary, some benefits, maybe some options and a workplace as prescribed by law (OSHA, etc).

That is it. You don't owe them to stay until your project is complete, or any other date convenient for them, unless your contract say so; they would certainly not keep you employed for another week to be more convenient for you, if you were being laid of by them.

So how they feel doesn't matter. It is a business relationship and well, it's nothing personal. Do what is best for you; if they can't accept or handle that, that is their problem, not yours.

You can submit a letter of resignation now with your planned end date. That helps remind that it's not a negotiation.

Subjective feedback: Get out. Companies are a group of people doing decisions - the quality of the decisions you witness is a good approximation of the company as a whole.

But in my experience, companies don't care about you, don't owe you anything and would drop you like a bad habbit tomorrow if they didn't need what you provide.

It is always reasonable and expected to provide a company with two weeks notice before leaving.

Furthermore, I make it a point to work harder those last weeks. Put the headphones on more and blow through stuff. Add documentation, tests, work extra hours that you don't charge for.

Having said that, once those two weeks are up, your obligation is over. Do what is best for you, your career and your family and move on with no regrets.

Why should you show them the same courtesy?

You don't owe your current employer anything, and if you leave the due-date for the software may be pushed back.... but its not as if the business will fail without you.

Too often we over-estimate our own worth. You're replaceable. With enough time and effort and yes cash, anyone can be replaced.

This idea doesn't need to be dehumanizing. It rather can be empowering in that it let's you get over the dubious loyalty people have to employers.

Back when I was in my twenties and knew everything, I would always think that the project would surely crash and burn without me there every day. Of course it doesn't work that way--one person leaving is almost never going to doom a project. And even if it does, so what? It's your FORMER project at your FORMER company. Are you really worried about having some kind of "legacy"?

I'd want to know that the right team is in place to support a product before releasing it, and once it's out there's no reigning it back in.

I would feel happy for you and try my best to make sure we got a good handover. Your problem is with the management and not your fellow developers.

>> If you were a dev manager or hired this developer, how would you feel about them leaving in the circumstances described?

I would try and tap into your experience before it leaves the company. The boat needs steadying - there may be some obvious low lying fruit.

Bad experiences are just as valuable as good experiences.

Long story short - in business you always move forward.

Do what you must.

Look, we all have individual goals. Sometimes these align and we form a strong team. Sometimes they diverge and people move on. I believe you are overanalyzing your role in all of this. Give your two week notice, act like a professional, and ignore the launch calendar.

If they fuck up at this step then the planning part was basically non-existent.

If anything GTFO and read up on how business works so you know where you are on the foodchain and how it's not your fault for wanting to leave before it hits prod.

These things can linger on for a long time.

1. The current company doesn't respect you. Plus with that kind of management: they would replace you if they wanted.

2. Don't screw over a relationship at the start. You're going to have a bad future with that company if you do that. They won't understand or care why you stayed longer.

My point was more that I've seen lots of problems attributed to the last engineer out of the door in the places I've worked. If liability isn't taken care of (sometimes there is a separate contract for liability & scope of work apart from the attribution of IP), and you're doing work to "do the right thing" then it may well be a case of "no good deed goes unpunished".

I'm with you in that I'd prefer to stay to see it into production. However, you have a commitment to your employer in that you agreed to start on Date X.

So, I see two options.

1) Explain to your new employer why you think you should delay starting. Go with what they say.

2) Explain to your current employer that the dates are already set, and that you need to leave.

Stay positive no matter what.

Source: have seen very similar situations and I've been a manager in one.

Either stay until the product is deployed and all the worst fires are put out (aka several months from now) or leave now.

Forget the company and product. You've put in your time and effort. The launch date and push back was outside of your control.

Don't let anyone or anything "guilt" you into thinking this is somehow in your control or that your input matters at all.

You have a new job, so move on and forget it.

However, why not offer to consult on any production issues that they have (at a reasonable hourly rate). As long as it's done in your own time, and it doesn't violate any non-compete you might have in general this shouldn't be an issue.

Most employers I have worked with have been fine with pushing dates back - it shows your dedication as an engineer. In my view. It also prevents you burning bridges with current colleagues who you would wish to work with in future.

I understand that your current project may need your attention. But that is a result of mismanagement, and two wrongs won't make a right!

You're on to continue with your life and grab a new opportunity and I'd wish you well on whatever you do, and I'd thank and appreciate that you worked weekends and nights to make the app happen.

- this mess will appear to your future employers as to why you want to leave.

- although i'm sure your fellow devs will not be happy, they should understand your reasons and respect your choice.

Then a month. Then another.

I left in August. They are still building. Haven't launched yet.

If you want to leave you should leave. If I was your co-worker I probably would not care much.

Any employer ever demanded this from me, I'd be straight out of the door.

Enjoy the new job!

Good luck at the new job

The leave option : This area is always hot and there are a lot of jobs, so if you're unhappy you can find another position rapidly. Life is short. If you're being jerked around go ahead and find something else where that is going to be less likely. Greener pastures (usually) exist in this land of abundance.

The stay option : Staying for a month after production shows character and is something you can learn A LOT from. Maybe you've been to production many times before but there is always something to learn, even when it's a flaming shit-show. Especially when it is. The period of moving into prod is often rough, and sometimes only the strong pull through it. Even if you stay for only a month, you will be getting valuable experience and stories to tell. Stories that are actually most valuable when told in your next interview, and every subsequent interview in your career. Think about it from a hiring manager's perspective. Would you rather hear a story about an employee who had gripes with the team and leadership but who was hungry for special experience and felt a duty to help during the first month of production? Or would you rather hear a story about an employee who had those gripes and left as soon as prod was launched, when the team is in a bit of a critical point. It's true that when you get to prod, the bulk of the initial development work is done ... but there is a substantial chunk left which is making sure it stays propped up when it falls over in all of the various ways it usually does in the first month. The "story" of staying just for 1 month is definitely better. It's less comfortable but rewards more experience and anecdotes. However, make sure you do get out soon if you recognize a need to do so.

As for your current situation, I would say it shows some character that you want to help through with the push to prod. I would say ask, and if both employers are agreeable then do it. But if either employer doesn't like the idea much, then don't push hard for it. Just start your new job. Employer #1 might not like the idea much either. Once it's clear that someone is exiting sometimes it's best to not have them mingling very much. On the other side, if they are really eager to have you stay an additional week when they know you have already signed an offer with employer #2 and have a start date, they might not have your best interests in mind, which sounds like it is in line with your thoughts about them.

This is business, not a friendship.

It's not big deal and they'll survive just fine.

Do not push back the new job even more.

Possibly offer to consult for the previous employer, and/or simply let them know they can contact you if there's something they can't figure out.

Don't expect to be contacted -- they have 14 other developers which is far more than many projects that people leave.

> How would you feel if a fellow developer left in the circumstances described?

About you, personally? Probably a little jealous, but I wouldn't feel that you have done something wrong. It sounds like you gave adequate notice and planned on leaving one week prior to it going production. You then extended that and even that didn't work out. Assuming you're being paid more at this future employer, you've accepted a financial loss for the sake of your team. That's way more than most people do in your circumstances. Deadlines slip, sometimes, but some deadlines cannot be avoided. You made a commitment to another employer, asked for and received an extension to your start date, and now you're at the point where you need to live up to that commitment.

> If you were a dev manager or hired this developer, how would you feel about them leaving in the circumstances described?

You weren't clear on which dev manager (the new one who just hired you or the one which you're leaving) so here's my thoughts: As your former dev manager, I'd be perfectly fine with this for the reasons I indicated, above. There's only so much that I can expect from you and you've already gone further than most. As for your future dev manager, I'm pleased that you cared enough about your former job (and I probably know that you already weren't happy with this project and you still went over and above to try to leave them in the right position). I'm happy knowing that you showed dedication to a "bad project" (and we have bad projects here, too) and am looking forward to having someone on the team with that level of commitment.

Frankly, you already did everything I would have done, here. I would have told my future employer that I accepted the position with a firm start date, and that I will live up to that commitment, however, an important project where I am a key member slipped and would ask for another week to ensure I'm leaving my former employer in a good place (implying dedication and commitment that can be expected from me in my future position). If accepted (and it almost certainly would be), I would work to that date and leave regardless of the project state (working as many hours as required to push through and make it happen -- but we all know that isn't a guarantee). Accept that you've done the right thing and keep your commitment with your future employer. Also, keep in mind, that your former employer almost certainly would not give you this level of commitment if your position were eliminated.

The old employer had the notice on file. It should have been weighed into their determination of when to launch. It may have been. They may even have decided since OP was so invaluable that no matter when OP leaves they need one week extra to determine who is responsible to cover for OP's knowledge before they go to production. It is unfair to the new employer to drag out starting because the old employer is unreliable.