If the current project has been poorly managed so far & dates keep slipping, that is likely to continue to be the case. The launch date could slip even further.
You already arranged a leave date with your employer, and you already went beyond what you were required to by trying to schedule that so you could help launch the project. You are not responsible for their failure to hit their schedules.
Trying to push your start date back with your new employer could also damage your upcoming relationship with them: they're more likely to care that the date change hurts their plans then that you want to do something generous for your current employer.
I remember a similar (but less serious) situation in which I went 2.5 yrs with 0 vacation.
I was feeling pretty much beat and close to burned out so I scheduled a vacation outside of the country having basically the max number of PTO days an employee can gather. Told my manager of my plans and he passive aggressively told me that sure, you can take PTO... the project is on fire and we'll launch next month but sure, you go on your vacation.
Did not go because I was genuinely scared about my career.
Project got pushed another two months. Tried to do the same, same result. Got pushed back again two months. And I was still there, working my ass off.
Rewards for that year were mediocre at best, although I worked my ass off.
What I learned from that is the fact that work never ever ends. There is no 'perfect' time for leaving. Even after launch, the team may need the original developers to fight fires all day and patch production to keep things running especially if the project was a death march or if the schedule was pushed back a couple of times.
Leave, try your best to not burn bridges and be honest with the current employer.
> Especially, don't work your ass off expecting to be rewarded. It never happens.
I think this might be an over-generalization and that this is might only hold true for people who are farther along in their careers. I'm currently in year six of mine and I've been given a lot of great projects and early promotions (with subsequent pay jumps) from having been in the minority of people on a team that is working their ass off. These returns have, however, diminished with time.
If I had to hazard a guess I think this is probably because a more junior engineer working their ass off can show quick and obvious improvements to the quality of your work and time management skills, which start off as near excrement and iterate to "ok" over time.
I bet you would get wayyyy faster and higher promotions by leaving the company rather than staying.
The world is full of people waiting, hopefully, for their 10% yearly raise, repeated over many years. They'll only realize after 5 years that they could have done the same progression by changing company after 2 years.
>>> If I had to hazard a guess I think this is probably because a more junior engineer working their ass off can show quick and obvious improvements to the quality of your work and time management skills, which start off as near excrement and iterate to "ok" over time.
Lemme tell you how it usually goes. The people at your company around you probably:
1) wont notice your improvements (determining good is hard and they ll forever remember you as the junior who just joined)
2) have zero management support (depends on politics
3) have the organization turned against you (typical raise blocked at X% per year top and only once a year).
If one wants to get his progression noticed, one should go interview at other places and tell his achievements in front of interviewers who wants to listen to just that ;)
My experience has been that it all comes down to who you're working for - some people make good on promises of a reward, most people do not.
Importantly also - nearly all people will not offer a substantial reward unprompted. If you want something for working your ass of, you need to explicitly demand it, in specific terms (ex., don't ask for "a bonus", get a firm number).
A great many managers (arguably, most managers) are in the habit of making promises for rewards that they are either unable or unwilling to keep. My suggestion for people is to figure out which kind of people you're dealing with early on in a job - observe carefully how casually they promise things, and how frequently they live up to these promises. Calibrate your expectations accordingly.
> Importantly also - nearly all people will not offer a substantial reward unprompted. If you want something for working your ass of, you need to explicitly demand it, in specific terms (ex., don't ask for "a bonus", get a firm number).
This is a really good point.
This may be controversial to say but I suspect that this sort of assertive and open negotiation for future reward is part of the reason for the gender pay gap in software. For better or worse, I find that in most cases my male colleagues tend to layout more detailed expectations for compensation in advance of any salary renegotiation (promotion, raise, bonus, etc.) and to make themselves heard when they're not satisfied.
In the interest of full disclosure I am male so it could also just be that I am inexperienced with other biases relating to gender.
I've done both mistakes in the past 3 years. I've been on sick leave for 1.5 months now because of stress and I hate myself for doing this.
I sleep 3-4 hours each night and I get panic attacks whenever I think about work. Well, now it's been so long that I don't even care but I'm feeling anxious as hell about coming back. I'm probably gonna kill myself soon.
I genuinely hope you don't kill yourself, feel free to PM if you wanna chat about whatever.
A job is just a job, they come and go. We trick ourselves into making them seem far more important than they really are, but ultimately it's just a means to an end. It's so easy to lose sight of that when life gets busy.
Things get better but you have to let time do it's thing too. Patience.
If you haven't done so while you've been out sick, please see a doctor or therapist for the stress. Heck, even if you've been to a doctor or therapist about this, please talk to them again so they know that so far, it isn't working.
At this point, you can probably safely go to the ER and tell them you fear you'll kill yourself so that you'll get urgent help.
====
This stuff you are going through, it can get better. It doesn't last. You can learn to deal with panic attacks, you can change jobs, and so on.
I can identify with how you feel because several years ago, I was in the same boat. I am generally averse to making promises, but in this case, I will make you one. This will get better.
Anxiety is an absolutely horrible affliction and panic attacks are my personal definition of hell. The troubling part is that I understand how you feel. When panic attacks were part of my life, I often contemplated putting an end to everything. It wasn't that I hated life...it was that I hated the circumstances under which I had to live life.
However, don't hate yourself. You were brave and intelligent enough to listen to your body. Your body screamed at you to stop and you listened. Be proud of yourself because frankly, lots of people like you don't listen to their bodies and die of heart attacks when they are in their 30s. Or, they don't listen to their bodies and develop addictions to alcohol or heavy drugs. You listened to yours and you started the path to getting better. Let time do its work because frankly my friend, this is going to take time.
And please, don't kill yourself. I know that this job may seem like the be all and end all, but I promise you that it isn't. There are more jobs out there, and if software doesn't do it for you anymore, there are literally thousands of different careers out there.
I believe in you, so I know that you can get through this, but you may need some help or, at the very least, a kind ear. My email address is in my profile. Please use it - I will never judge you and will keep anything you say to myself, unless you tell me about a specific plan to kill yourself. Then, I am sorry that I have to say this, but I will do whatever it takes to keep you from fulfilling that plan.
Replies like this remind me we are human, and people do care. There's too much focus on deadlines, money and profit. Maybe one day the wheel will fall off this psychopathic hamster wheel we call capitalism.
"Especially, don't work your ass off expecting to be rewarded. It never happens."
As I sit here and hold 5,000 carats of Mount Baldy Sapphire, all spoken for (at $30/carat) I'm going to have to call shenanigans on that one.
I work my ass off mining and I'm rewarded every day with a killer view, fresh air, and a distinct lack of idiot customers and bosses, and then I get to hold some of the rarest and most precious materials on this planet.
"Never sacrifice your personal life for work. It aint worth it."
You do almost exactly that mining. It's well worth it if you have even 1/10th of a clue of what you're doing.
There is a difference between working for yourself keeping all the fruits of your labor to you, and working for a company where your reward is fixed by a contract irrelevant of what you actually do.
I'm not sure what the parallel here is, is it that a big-ass sapphire has something to do with your personal life? Does "project got pushed another two months." happen in mining? Unused PTO? Do you ever take your hard-won rocks to the guy and he tells you no, they're actually only worth 1/10th what you thought?
In my experience, better workers rights tend to make your life better regardless of whether you work your arse off or not.
In fact, I would say that setting in place systems that push employees to work unsociably heavily and forsake family and life experience in order to be rewarded is a staple of countries with extremely toxic working cultures, such as japan and china.
Employers in countries with good workers rights tend to react mostly with abject terror if they discover you've been, say, working weekends. They know what happens if the government or local unions get wind that unpaid weekend work might be some kind of defacto standard in a workplace.
> What I learned from that is the fact that work never ever ends.
Exactly this. In general, it is totally fine to have short bursts of overtime but longer periods clearly point to management fail. Either chaos or greed rule in that company and the best thing to do is to get out ASAP.
This is very, very true. It applies to pretty much any commitment that is bad for you: a bad job, a bad relationship, there's always a Very Important Reason not to do it right now.
> If the current project has been poorly managed so far & dates keep slipping, that is likely to continue to be the case.
A little louder for the people in the back.
Especially if you've already given notice to your current employer, go ahead and get out. If you haven't... I think you can justify leaving easily enough. You fully intended to stay on and finish, and I think anyone that cares enough to ask about this will understand.
"If the current project has been poorly managed so far & dates keep slipping, that is likely to continue to be the case. The launch date could slip even further."
Actually, I'd say it's relatively safe to go a step farther. Based on the description, the odds favor the interpretation that the poster will not be leaving one week before the deployment. The odds favor that either the poster is leaving several months before deployment, or several months before the project gets canned anyhow.
To the poster, I'd suggest keeping in touch with one of those 14 people and just ask them to tell you when it ships. You have a very good chance of discovering that you have absolutely nothing to feel guilty over when you realize nine months from now you still haven't heard from them, and it turns out that it's because it still hasn't shipped yet.... (Or they found another job too....)
There is nothing more frustrating as a manager than a new hire who starts pushing back their start date, especially close to the start date.
Computers have been purchased, training partners assigned, HR booked, initial projects pulled out of the backlog.
I've had a couple of firm conversations where I basically said, "On Monday you should be with the company you want to be with and if that's not us, I understand and will start the hiring process again."
Not gonna lie, this would be a complete turnoff to me. Something something exploding offers and whatnot. If you can't spare a week for someone new to start, something is probably out of whack. If they keep pushing back, sure, but if it's a week "because I want to help out my team," are you going to hold that against them? Would you want them to bail on you like that when they leave your company?
So you would rather restart the hiring process than wait another week?
From what I've read about the numbers this seems very costly.
Are you expecting to be able to go through the whole hiring process successfully with another person in 5 working days?
My best guess would be that you did not like the person that much but that is missing the point
I think you are projecting. It's an ultimatum: "choose which company your loyalties lie with". The two times I've reached the point of delivering that ultimatum the developers showed up. If the person is not that committed they're going to be gone anyway in three to six months which is far more expensive in my experience.
That said, I've also given developers another week to wrap things up, more time because of illness and family obligations, and a couple more weeks to start when they asked because "they were still burnt out".
It's not like I throw my hands up and the first road block and shred the resume.
If they'd been around the block a few times, they'd probably have the confidence to simply say that they didn't have a choice. But for someone close to starting out, it can be nice to have someone else effectively make the decision for them.
> So you would rather restart the hiring process than wait another week?
That's only half the coin - the other half is "would you rather restart the hiring process than hire someone showing red flags (not sticking to their commitments / showing up on time) before they even start the job?"
Sick? Family emergency? Funeral? Sure.
Can't let go of your old job? Hmm...
> From what I've read about the numbers this seems very costly.
From what I've read, so is hiring the wrong person and then having to fire them or have them quit - all that time wasted getting them up to speed.
On the other hand, they may be getting cold feet about leaving all their old colleagues and friends behind and about to accept a generous counteroffer that they haven't yet had time to formalize.
Or perhaps they remembered they really hate PHP. Or the state they'd be moving to. Or gotten a last minute job offer from someone else that they like way better. Or...
See what happened with the OP. They pushed back one week, and are now close to doing it again. As mentioned above there's scope for this to continue indefinitely until the new employer puts their foot down.
> Plus, I'm always concerned when a developer ends their last job on Friday and starts Monday at our company.
Why? I did that else my family would have without health insurance (and income) for a while..
Ah, I'm Canadian, many developers take some time off between gigs to recharge. Our health care is somewhat tied to our employer but it's not as bad as the US.
I'm more concerned about the scenario where a developer has been working 12+ hour days on a release and then 50 or so hours later is now trying to ramp up on at our company.
In the US, there's typically COBRA as well so you can continue your previous insurance for up to about 18 months--without your previous employer co-pays of course.
It was quite a few years back but I don't remember it as being a big deal after I was briefly laid off post-9/11. As I recall I filled out forms to be covered but never actually paid in because there's a grace period and I got a new job after about a month. All things medical can get complicated, but COBRA should just be a continuation of your existing coverage.
Not a developer, but what do you mean in your second paragraph? Do you think people should take more time between jobs or spend part of their (generally two weeks) notice as vacation? Just wondering.
I'd be more specific. There is nothing more frustrating than a new hire who delays for stupid reasons; like his previous company screwing with him and he stays more instead of running away.
Yes! The project seems mismanaged, you dislike working there, you have a better job with a start date agreed on -- get out now.
Also, be explicit with yourself on why you do not want to leave shortly before deployment? IMO the only reasonable answer is that you are a key player and want to help your current project through birthing pains.
If so, you can offer to help your old employer, pro bono, for a short time after the launch as your time allows. No guarantees, but you will try. If they do ask for help, work for a few evenings or a weekend and help. But leave now -- the chances that the latest slip of a badly managed project is the last are always slim.
This minus the pro bono. If you are indeed a key dev then you can offer to continue some paid side work short term to get them through the transition pains. It is only fair that you get paid and it also gives the old employer an incentive to phase you out more quickly due to costs rather than use you for a crutch as long as possible.
To me, doing this pro bono is the way to go. This makes it crystal clear to your old employer that you are doing it as a favor, not obligation or commitment. Then you can also pull out at any time. You are just being nice (which tends to pay benefits eventually in some unpredictable ways), not trying to earn some extra cash. In fact I doubt many companies would take you up on that offer at all.
IMO consulting for your old employer might upset your new employer ("whom would he support if both of us need him at the same time?). Taking a few calls pro bono, even at work time (which is not pro bono now, your new employer is effectively paying for it) is usually just fine with new employer. This shows you as a responsible person that is unlikely to burn bridges changing jobs, valuable member of the team (your old employer values you enough to ask for your advice, etc.).
And to me, doing this pro bono shows a lack of regard for the value of your own time.
They paid you to do the job before, why do it for free now?
I've been in this situation fairly recently. I pointed out to my old employer that I was "being nice" by consulting for them since my new job was keeping me pretty busy, so I told them the max number of hours I was willing to commit to, and how much I would charge. Come up with a reasonable cost of your time (hint: not below $100/hour) and find out beforehand how they want to be billed.
It's business. A business exists to make money, not to be your friend.
Do most people's new employees allow this? Almost everywhere I've worked said that I was not allowed to take on other paid work while being an employee (granted my experience has just been big financial companies in NYC). But I'd imagine places like Google/FB would also frown on people doing paid consulting for previous employers.
You might also ask is it legal for businesses to demand you don't "moonlight", it's like a non-compete in a way. Most people aren't paid enough that they're beholden to a company in their time off. One would probably need to consult a specialist employment lawyer for the pertinent jurisdiction.
I think in that regard New York State is much more employer friendly than California (ie claims on things you do in your own time belonging to your employer seem to be much more likely to be enforced if included in your employment agreement).
My mental model for this was "help an old lady push the car out of the ditch", not "I am selling you a service". My reward was a happy conscience and maybe a misguided belief that if I wanted to go back (tables and fortunes turn, managements change, etc.) a 5-min phone call would be all it takes.
Have you personally done this? I have been in this exact situation multiple times. The first time it happened I offered to do it as a favor since I felt an obligation to my old team and didn't want to burn any bridges.
Six months later when I was still getting calls I felt trapped. So then I finally told them that it had been six months and I could no longer help them without getting paid. Suddenly they managed to get things done on their own. We are still on good terms; I even meet for lunch or drinks occasionally with those same colleagues 12 years later.
Since then, I always offer to help for a fee while they transition. None have ever been upset by that approach since they are professionals; something that in hindsight I wasn't when I offered to do it as a favor all those years ago.
Some employers have taken me up on this offer some have not. That is the motivation though. I don't WANT them to take me up on the offer; I've just quit so I want to move on. I also don't want to burn bridges or leave anyone in the lurch.
I got maybe 5 calls of no more than 1 hour each and spent a few hours in SSH session (restoring a service I wrote for myself but put on the intranet which I thought no one but myself was using; when my workstation was wiped apparently enough people wanted it back). I got a "we owe you a beer" after that which I never claimed as I am halfway across the US now and that was it.
As I took no money I felt very comfortable choosing dates and times that were convenient for me. They would email me and I would set up an hour for a phone call or an ssh session within the next few days. If I took any money I would feel pressure to respond quicker. Anyhow, this worked for me, but obviously YMMV.
If this had been my experience, then I probably would have been fine with not charging.
To elaborate on my personal experiences.
It was never about making money, but always about smoothly severing ties. In my first experience both I and my new employer were frustrated as I was receiving calls every week for more than six months. The old company and the new company were different, but they had close ties which is the only reason my new job tolerated that I was spending hours they were paying for on someone else for free. When it was still going on for six months I was advised by my current boss to advise them I would have to charge to continue to support them, and see what happened. At that point they said they understood and would discuss it with their superiours. It turned out that with money as a motivating factor they finally were able to get by without me.
With another employer I knew that a standard two week notice for them wasn't long enough as I was their lone sys admin, but anything longer would not have been ok for my new employer who had just lost a key employee on a major project and needed someone that could step in ASAP and hit the ground running. In that case I offerered that I could help out in the evenings or weekends for a reasonable hourly rate that was still above my normal hourly rate. They were glad to have that offer there and said they would only call me if they absolutely had to. I never heard a word from them until I got a call that their Exchange server (which I had repeatedly advised them for more than a year needed to be replaced, but they were too cheap to do so) had crashed and they urgently needed help. I came in on a Friday night after getting off work and then I worked straight through the weekend to setup a new server and recover all of the lost data. They were more than glad to pay.
With another employer I was the leadon a mission criticial financial system I gave them a longer than usual notice when I was leaving to give them extra time to prepare for my departure. Then I spent my last month doing nothing but trying to make sure everyone knew what was needed before I left. I gave them the same option, for a fee they were welcome to call me whenever they needed. Almost six months went by and I didn't hear from them, then I got a call when they realized no one knew how to handle their end of year cutover. I walked them through it in an hour long call. They were very happy to have the help and would have paid; I told them not to worry about it since it was only an hour and they hadn't been pestering me in the past, but that if I got a call next year about the same issue I would have to bill them for it. No bridges were burned there; they were happy and occassionally I have run in to some of the higher ups and they always tell me how they would love for me to come back if I ever decide I need a change.
Yeah whether you're leaving or not this is still business, not a charity.
Charge a healthy consultancy fee (hint: it's more than your ex-wage cause you need to cover taxes, your self-employed admin costs, and motivation fees). If they need you enough they'll pay it and if they don't then you're away guilt-free.
Totally. You've given notice, and accepted an offer (and start date) elsewhere. You're done. Walk away, or accept their dubious power over you.
If a relationship partner did something bad enough that you dumped/divorced them, but they demanded that you stay a bit longer because they hadn't finished doing the thing you disliked...
Perhaps he should have a quiet word with the manager in charge "slip me a couple hundred and I'll leave right away so you've an excuse to push back the deadline" ;0P
The other point of view is that you should never burn your bridges. Your next employer is likely to be much more flexible at first than later on, and even more so before you start, so if you need a favor, now is exactly the time to ask for it.
You already arranged a leave date with your employer, and you already went beyond what you were required to by trying to schedule that so you could help launch the project. You are not responsible for their failure to hit their schedules.
Trying to push your start date back with your new employer could also damage your upcoming relationship with them: they're more likely to care that the date change hurts their plans then that you want to do something generous for your current employer.
I think you should get out.