I would like to see these sorts of studies controlled with a group that rather than meditate for 30 minutes a day do anything that requires concentration for 30 minutes a day. So e.g. writing, learning an instrument, etc. I would assume you would get similar changes in brain functioning as meditation. In other words it would be interesting to see if there is something special about meditation, or if its benefits can be achieved by any sort of daily period of sustained/enhanced concentration.
It's possible, but I'd be pretty shocked. I've been doing mindfulness meditation for a few months and I feel fairly confident in saying that the belief that "the operative part of meditation is sustained concentration" is a misconception. When you meditate you allow yourself to become aware of your body sensations but you don't force yourself to concentrate on them, and I don't think that most meditators explicitly try to maintain concentration when they sit. (That said, after ten or fifteen minutes of meditation concentration often becomes natural.)
It certainly has seemed to me that the important part of meditation is the relaxation that it lets you achieve. I think it's literally impossible for me (at least) to get as relaxed as I am after a typical hour of meditation by any nonmeditative means. (If you interpret "relaxation" as having low blood levels of e.g. cortisol this is actually measurable.) And I know that I have days when I don't sufficiently relax myself when I sit, and I usually don't see the same benefits that I do from "good" sits. 'Course, a lot of this could be confirmation bias.
Also, anecdotally, I maintain substantial concentration for 30+ minutes a day because that's what studying is, and the short- and long-term effects of that concentration don't seem to be anything like the effects of meditation.
Cortisol + Epigenetics = shit we are just starting to understand.
Myself included.
Point being is that how we react to our environment has a profound affect on the expression (or suppression) of genes in our DNA, and can be passed on through generations.
Mindful meditation is probably (pure conjecture on my part) causing methylation of genes involved in the production of cortisol (indirect).
I agree. Concentration and awareness/mindfulness meditation are very different things in my opinion too. For example, I'm able to reach "flow" for sustained periods of time in my work (which is ultimate concentration), but the result of that is completely different than an awareness exercise for even 2+ minutes.
This of course is nowhere near proof, but it's my experience:
1. After the intense concentration I nearly feel out of it afterwards, or lower in energy. It feels like I have lost track of where and who in the universe I just was. Depending on the task, I may afterwards feel a certain sense of accomplishment or the opposite, wasteful.
2. After an awareness exercise I get a sense of relief. I feel like I can look upon the world in a less biased way -- see reality for more of what it is. I feel like certain worries and stresses have dissipated, and an overall life-focus has improved -- I can see better than usual what is more important for me and for my life. In addition, my judgments of people and things has dissipated too, become more healthy and realistic.
I completely agree a real study would be great though.
Sure but I think gp's point is that we'd like a group that we'd test against. If things are as you believe, the contrast should only be more pronounced.
What I'd really like to know is whether these changes are permanent. I used to meditate daily for a few years in high school and then stopped for various more or less scary reasons.
There were three main effects I personally got from meditation:
1. A constant headache that lasted a few years and then promptly ended when I stopped meditating. Of course this could just be correlation, but it's one hell of correlation.
2. From my later experiences I found out that meditating that often and on that level (I could go into lucid REM within a minute of concentrating and then snap myself out of it at will) had a similar effect as constantly being on light doses of hallucinogenic drugs. It was really quite awesome, everything had a deep richness to it, colours were brighter, shapes were more pronounced etc.
3. Daily meditation also produced some quite interesting side-effects like being able to hold my breath for several minutes and reducing my heart rate to 40bpm (measured with an at-home cardiograph).
Another interesting effect of being able to go into REM at will was that I could live for a few years on 4 hours of daily sleep because I was in effect doing polyphasic sleep.
The only prolonged effect from meditation that I can still notice three-ish years after stopping is that I no longer dream like a normal person.
Maybe I should start meditating again, that stuff was kinda fun.
"A constant headache that lasted a few years and then promptly ended when I stopped meditating."
Might have something to do with unconscious straining of the eyes. Diagnosis based on hearsay - my friend had this problem and it vanished after he switched from a closed-eyed to open-eyed technique.
It seems like you got some really interesting results. I meditate on my own for a while and like you I found several "more or less scary reasons" to stop.
Recently I started again with a teacher and it is awesome. It makes all the good bits great and minimizes all the unpleasant stuff.
There is a dude called Alan Chapman, who has a great deal of experience with meditation and dream states. In addition to this he reads Wired and is down to earth.
I used two main techniques, first I just did focus exercises for a few weeks then I started with the more advanced stuff.
First you need to learn to focus your mind, you take a bright object (a firelighter works great) and you stare into the flame. Then you slowly and carefully shut down your brain and just focus on the bright light. If a tought pops up the most important thing to remember is to let it go and focus away from it, if you get mad or focusing on not focusing on it that's one more tought that popped up.
Then once you get the hang of that you can start doing more interesting things. My favourite was to attempt super-position and out of body experiences. Basically you sit in a comfortable position and focus on a memory of a place, or a made-up place. You slowly build up the image of your surroundings, starting with what's immediately before your eyes and then going from there. Once you're proficient in building a visual representation of fake surroundings you start with sounds, smells and tastes. When you get that down you can start fooling your kinestatic sense, which means you have to feel your arms/legs/body in a different position than it actually is.
Once you've done that, voila, you've just achieved lucid REM at will.
If you talk to a spirituality guru they will tell you it's an astral plane, or out of body experience. But really it's just lucid REM :)
I never managed to quite completely detach myself from reality, I got into the super-position state where I could feel myself being in two places at once ... sort of everywhere.
The main thing you have to remember when doing any of these experiments is that your mind is the only thing in the world fully under your control. It cannot do something you don't let it do.
It should be noted that this is a fairly unusual practice, quite different to the more common concentration, insight, and awareness meditation systems.
Probably depends on what you want to achieve with meditation. My goal was to achieve things written about on this page: http://psipog.net/
Most actively I was going after clairvoyance.
And it worked to an extent, I eventually stopped because I couldn't distinguish what my mind was thinking it was doing from any sort of actual physical effect and I never managed to achieve anything that couldn't adequately be explained as lucid REM.
Interesting feedback. OK I will sound like a freak but this stuff is so damn interesting.
To me your method is more likely to induce WILD not OBE. And I don't think it's the same.
Edit: visualization and the fact you seeked clairvoyance could be an explanation for your constant headache, I suppose your sixth chakra was very active?
I expect any new activity will change the brain structure and make it more "elastic". To really assess if there are long time benefits of meditation, one needs a way larger sample size and longer time period. I wonder how the changes juggling does to our brain compare to those of meditation or other activities.
1. Find a quiet and comfortable place. Sit in a chair or on the floor with your head, neck and back straight but not stiff.
2. Try to put aside all thoughts of the past and the future and stay in the present.
3. Become aware of your breathing, focusing on the sensation of air moving in and out of your body as you breathe. Feel your belly rise and fall, the air enter your nostrils and leave your mouth. Pay attention to the way each breath changes and is different.
4. Watch every thought come and go, whether it be a worry, fear, anxiety or hope. When thoughts come up in your mind, don't ignore or suppress them but simply note them, remain calm and use your breathing as an anchor.
5. If you find yourself getting carried away in your thoughts, observe where your mind went off to, without judging, and simply return to your breathing. Remember not to be hard on yourself if this happens.
6. As the time comes to a close, sit for a minute or two, becoming aware of where you are. Get up gradually.
I just did it for the first time for 10 minutes. I am surprised by the number of thoughts that flashed through my mind. I think doing this really help clear up the queue of things your subconscious wants to bring up but you have not had the time to get to. My temples and forehead feels really oxygenated. I think the deep breathing is a big part of it.
This is it. Wish I could upvote you a few dozen points. Really, I think other comments that talk about meditation as being some grand mystical experience are doing a disservice.
It's simple. It's easy. You don't need to pay a $1000 to some Guru Master to learn it.
Oh shoot, I accidentally downvoted you to 0. I'm sorry! I didn't mean it but I can't see how to undo like I could on Reddit; perhaps someone could neutralize my vote?
Wow! Lots of interest in meditation lately. The study suggests that meditation does something, as opposed to nothing. I imagine watching TV for 8 weeks changes brain structure too. Neuroscience based on imaging has a long way to go, but we have to start somewhere, right?
As for haecib's point about improvements in cognitive function, I say it's tough to measure in the global sense we really care about. What's the value of being a more kind and patient person? Can you measure cleverness?
Current tests of cognitive function are things like working memory (somebody must have tested that -- I'll look), phonemic fluency, etc. Did you know that "long working hours may have a negative effect on cognitive performance in middle age."[1]
Is Hacker News going to start covering meditation? Great! in the meantime, here are two more articles that might interest readers of this topic.
This is Your Brain on Meditation, quote: "Science and meditation teachings are exactly parallel" he explained "but they don't speak the same language."[2]
Great to see meditation discussed on Hacker News. I would like to join with my two cents.
There seems to be some confusion regarding the different kinds of meditation there are, and there are lot. Within the Buddhist context there are two main types: Samatha (concentration) and Vipassana (insight).
Concentration meditation calms and relaxes, and this is usually achieved by instructing the practitioner to focus on something and not to let go for the period set aside to meditate. That which is focused on (the object of meditation) can be the breath where the instruction would be :follow your breath while you meditate, a syllable - om is the classic one, a posture - by sitting in a certain way and just being fully aware or engaging in a yoga asana or even the whole body which is what mindfulness meditation seems to be about. Most people find it hard to stay with something like the breath without interruptions for 3 minutes, let alone 15, 30 or 60 minutes. If this is done long enough it becomes natural to stay with the object for any amount of time and the ability to focus increases.
Insight meditation leads to breakthroughs in the Buddhist framework. In this practice one focuses on something in one’s awareness: a physical sensation, a thought, a mental imagine or visualisation, etc... By doing this one is said to be able to realise it’s 3 Characteristics which are Impermanence, Suffering and No-Self. The breakthrough will eventually lead to Enlightenment which is the Cessation of Suffering. The capitalisation is to denote Buddhist dogma for a great explanation of these concepts and the stages one goes through please refere to: Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha by Daniel Ingram MD, available for free here. http://www.interactivebuddha.com/mctb.shtml
Traditionally, in Buddhism anyway, one builds up the ability to stay with an object with clarity for a period of time by doing concentration (samatha) and then moves on to do (vipassana)
I hope this is helpful. Meditation is an interesting topic but at this point in time it is difficult to make sense of all the jargon and perspectives. Perhaps my time reading up on this is helpful to someone in a position similar to mine a few years ago.
Many of the comments in this topic, and yesterday's "Ask HN: Do you meditate? How/Why?[1] have a skeptical tone.
reader5000: "I would like to see these sorts of studies controlled with a group"
Swizec: "What I'd really like to know is whether these changes are permanent"
andrewwingram: "I'd like to see if this is backed up by similar studies."
haecib, "what I really want to know is do those changes in the brain's structure manifest in any sort of measurable cognitive improvement."
It's possible no skepticism is intended in the above cases, but let's say it is. Certainly there are some skeptical people. And hesitation is implied, as if, 'Once it's proven that meditation has certain benefits, then maybe I'll try it.' There's nothing wrong with skepticism and hesitation. These traits can be lifesaving, but there's an opportunity cost whenever these traits guide behavior.
The opportunity cost for a 6 or 8 week meditation trial is very low. We know enough to see the potential for a positive result, which may be modest or huge. So you don't see a few movies, so what? It's not like you can't see them later. Just try it.
I'm fine with a modest benefit, whatever it may be, but what energizes my practice is the big stuff: seeing clearly, substantially more skillful action, happiness not based on conditions, equanimity, even the big E. I can't think of any other activity, not even starting Google, with that kind of return.
I was definitely wary when I started getting into meditation. Walking up to the relevant shelf at Borders, it can look like a bunch of aging hippies and new age woo. Which is normally a big GET AWAY sign for me.
One thing I found useful was the book "Zen and the Brain" by Dr. James H. Austin, published by MIT Press. Austin is an emeritus professor of neuroscience, and has been practicing Zen since he spent some time in Japan in the late 60s.
The book is a massive, thousand page, dense doorstop, with lots of information. He tries to come up with possible explanations of the phenomena experienced in meditation, and for how meditation can cause long-term changes. The Table of Contents even includes a listing of chapters with "Testable Hypotheses".
The book goes through other phenomena similar to those experienced in meditation, which are caused by known influences such as drugs or localized tissue damage.
If I recall correctly, his main idea for how meditation might cause long-term changes in behavior is excitotoxic action of glutamate, etching away certain neural connection pathways.
Interesting, but what I really want to know is do those changes in the brain's structure manifest in any sort of measurable cognitive improvement. That should be the next thing to look at.
Actually, I think the article said that was what their previous study looked at. Having found cognitive improvements, they went looking for brain changes.
Per the work of Clifford Saron of UC Davis and the Shamatha Project, I believe they have correlated it with stronger attentional capacities. More interestingly they also have found a link (if indirect - a product of stress reduction) with greater telomerase activity, which could translate into greater longevity. http://www.ls.ucdavis.edu/dss/news-and-research/shamatha-pro...
It's very wordy and you can almost sum it up with the following exercise:
"Lie on your back, place your hand on your stomach, focus on your breathing ensuring that you expand your stomach on inhalation and contract it on exhalation. Do not concentrate on any specific thought(s). If your mind starts to wander, acknowledge the thought(s) and then let it go. Do this for 30 - 60 mins a day.".
Discipline is required to do this, something I am terrible at. Either I feel like I am wasting time or I fall asleep. :D
He does go into other postures, but from what I recollect the first one he mentions is lying on your back. I got from the book that the posture isn't as important as being comfortable, clearing your mind and having something stable to focus your mind on initially. Breathing is three fold because it is always with you, you will never stop breathing* & when people are anxious or in the midst of panic usually their breathing becomes irregular, which is something you can take back and control, empowering the person in that situation to realize they are still breathing and OK.
Much of the book is has him discussing his pain & wellness center, patients & his own life. Which is why I said it's wordy. I have read reviews that suggest his follow-up book has more meat & potatoes on meditation techniques:
you can meditate in any position you like. lotus like or seisa positions are recommended after thousands of years of practise and probably for good reasons (helps you stop falling asleep, spine orientation etc).
however personally i've experienced meditative state most deeply lying flat. YMMV and i haven't read that book.
Yes, it's wordy because it also talks about the experiments did / results achieved in the author's clinic, i.e. how people with diverse illnesses (even terminal ones, like cancer) managed to cope with their condition.
It can be summed up even shorter than you're describing ... but it's fucking hard to do, unless you have strong motives to do it and belief that this practice will have a good ROI on your mind / body.
Another study out of the University of Oregon last year used MRI to show similar results, but in as little as 6 hours of training:
"The changes were strongest in connections involving the anterior cingulate, a brain area related to the ability to regulate emotions and behavior. The changes were observed only in those who practiced meditation and not in the control group. The changes in connectivity began after six hours of training and became clear by 11 hours of practice. The researchers said it is possible the changes resulted from a reorganization of white-matter tracts or by an increase of myelin that surrounds the connections."
While the meditation protocol was not published (MBSR used in the main post has been well documented), I actually interviewed one of the lead investigators for the book I'm working on now and he shared that the U of O protocol was a hybrid that combined elements of mindfulness and some more basic physical relaxation techniques.
Basically, studies (and the progress of certain sciences) flow thusly:
1) A scientist has a outlandish idea, but is able to convince someone to fund him, albeit limitedly.
2) Scientist from the previous step publishes results of his study. If results seem worth following up on, continue to step 3. Otherwise, go back to step 1.
3) Another scientist looks at the previous scientist's results and attempts to get funding for an even more ambitious study, building upon previous scientist's work. This scientist may be trying to refute or support the previous scientist's findings.
4) This new scientist publishes. If his results support the results of the previous scientist, go back to step 3. If the results refute the results of the previous scientist, go back to step 1.
This process applies to any studies that are sufficiently "costly", thus mitigating risk. This is relevant, of course, because similar studies often elicit comments about why the study is insufficient. And, for a certain class of them, they always will be.
Great to see meditation discussed on Hacker News. I would like to join with my two cents.
There seems to be some confusion regarding the different kinds of meditation there are, and there are lot. Within the Buddhist context there are two main types: Samatha (concentration) and Vipassana (insight).
Concentration meditation calms and relaxes, and this is usually achieved by instructing the practitioner to focus on something and not to let go for the period set aside to meditate. That which is focused on (the object of meditation) can be the breath where the instruction would be :follow your breath while you meditate, a syllable - om is the classic one, a posture - by sitting in a certain way and just being fully aware or engaging in a yoga asana or even the whole body which is what mindfulness meditation seems to be about. Most people find it hard to stay with something like the breath without interruptions for 3 minutes, let alone 15, 30 or 60 minutes. If this is done long enough it becomes natural to stay with the object for any amount of time and the ability to focus increases.
Insight meditation leads to breakthroughs in the Buddhist framework. In this practice one focuses on something in one’s awareness: a physical sensation, a thought, a mental imagine or visualisation, etc... By doing this one is said to be able to realise it’s 3 Characteristics which are Impermanence, Suffering and No-Self. The breakthrough will eventually lead to Enlightenment which is the Cessation of Suffering. The capitalisation is to denote Buddhist dogma for a great explanation of these concepts and the stages one goes through please refere to: Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha by Daniel Ingram MD, available for free here. http://www.interactivebuddha.com/mctb.shtml
Traditionally, in Buddhism anyway, one builds up the ability to stay with an object with clarity for a period of time by doing concentration (samatha) and then moves on to do (vipassana)
I hope this is helpful. Meditation is an interesting topic but at this point in time it is difficult to make sense of all the jargon and perspectives. Perhaps my time reading up on this is helpful to someone in a position similar to mine a few years ago.
Certain types of meditation have been shown to exhibit different neural signals compared to those who do not (do a google scholar search for "Occipital gamma activation during Vipassana meditation").
Those who meditate also tend to have a much shortened "Attentional Blink". This is quite interesting as it shows a brain reorganisation which allows for greater information intake and filtering. You can find youtube and wikipedia entries for "Attentional Blink".
I don't get it. Won't doing any task with a certain complexity everyday for 8 weeks show a change in brain structure that is statistically significant compared to a control.
Simple silent meditation is not useful.
You need rhythmic vibrations which we have discovered almost 10k years ago. The mantras we use are just a proxy for producing the vibrations in sanskrit. sanskrit was just a proxy since that was the only language we knew. all the vibrations are written in sanskrit. wont speak more.
