This survey almost certainly wrong. 9 out of 10 people when given a leading question will probably say they think buying the latest smartphone is a waste of money, but the whole point of marketing shows that's not the case.
Average upgrade cycle is 24-36 months now. 75-85% of that is a "current" model. The caveat here is that "latest" device and flagship devices are not the same thing. For example, the latest oneplus can be either the flagship 8T or the new mid-range Nord.
A 24-36 month upgrade cycle means people aren't buying the latest smartphone every year. I don't think that the latest smartphone is a good value, and that's why I try to hold on to mine for a few years before buying a new one.
Maybe so, but there is still friction in that approach in terms of advertising, evaluating potential buyers , exchanging goods, handling money.
I don't know how iPhones handle the transfer process but anyone I know with an Android phone also dreads setting up a new phone because there's always something manually tedious that needs to be done.
> I don't know how iPhones handle the transfer process but anyone I know with an Android phone also dreads setting up a new phone because there's always something manually tedious that needs to be done
FWIW I've used Android phones for the last decade+ and my setup consists entirely of signing into my Google account once (and setting a wallpaper, if I feel like it).
You are still paying 1/3 the price of a new phone a year for that privilege, which is no small sum these days. Most people I know including myself are getting like 5-6 years out of their phones now.
Alternatively, I buy $100-$200 smartphones (I prefer ambitious phones that didn't sell at MSRP and then get marked down; Fire phone, Nextbit Robin, Essential PH-1, had to buy regular phones after that; considered the new iPhone SE, but after the PH-1, I'm not buying anything without a headphone jack I can't lose, and I'd rather not do anything without usb-c). Those usually last 12-24 months and then you get a fresh one.
and these phones never at any point in time had the performance or capabilities of the flagships so it's a lot like when I was shocked to realize these budget laptops everyone is so proud of themselves for "stealing" had cpu benchmarks still unable to compare with my 8 year old desktop
I should know, I did a few years of the $200ies and then got a $400 Xiaomi Note 10. Difference is absolutely beyond night and day for some uses
I agree. I have a Pixel 2 XL and was considering OnePlus Nord, but I think I'm fed up with Android and will buy some model of iPhone 12 as soon as it's released. People might say that iPhone is a "luxury item" but for me and surely for many users, not having their phone randomly disconnect with Bluetooth devices/restart/take literally 5 seconds to launch the camera does not count as "luxury", but instead is a bare minimum for something you use heavily day-to-day. Therefore spending e.g. 600 euros more is a no brainier especially given the payment can be made over 2 years. I won't upgrade my phone every year but 36 months sound about right.
By the way the similar logic applied to my laptop and I felt much more at ease and productive after returning to Mac after three years with X1 Carbon + Arch Linux. The cost was easily worth it (the one thing I missed is a proper window manager like Xmonad but I can get by with Amethyst just fine).
Majority of people don't need fast cpu. Majority of people need fast phone or those better capabilities even less.
I had 5 years old phone and bought new one only because of battery going out and the phone screen on the verge of breaking. Yes new one is faster and have better camera. No, I would be actually fine with the same model as before.
I’d argue more people need faster phones more than faster computers because more people need a phone more than a computer.
There’s some weird status thing with people preferring to be digital masochists unnecessarily. Like people who used to loudly tell everyone they don’t have a TV, good for you?
Getting a high end phone every year when you can trivially recoup most of that cost from flipping the old one lowers the bar.
Sure you can choose to use outdated hardware for years if you want to, but a lot of people would rather not.
The thing is, you gain nothing of value by that new phone every year. It is not masochism when you feel zero pain.
Also, but that is my personal pet peeve, new phones are too big for my hands. I had to buy new, it is smallest that was available and still uncomfortably big.
The smaller phones that were before were more comfortable and i could control them with one hand. So currently it is even loss that i had to buy new.
Fire phone had a Snapdragon 800, Robin had an 808, and PH-1 had an 835. Those were all flagship chips, and they were all cheap when I bought them. I'm hoping someone else comes by with a new flagship to firesale, but maybe investors figured it out. :/
Exactly. I bought mine new 4.5 years ago and it's still going strong. I had to get a new battery put in recently, and there have been occasional bugs crop up (lately it seems to have decided to reboot when a timer goes off) but apart from that it is all good.
Furthermore you can buy a new smartphone every 24 months and still not buy the latest model. I on average buy a new smartphone about every 24 to 36 months but I tend to buy used smartphones.
Just because someone thinks it’s a waste of money or poor value doesn’t mean they won’t buy it anyway.
I have an iPhone XR and, while there’s nothing about it lacking in daily use, I still have persistent thoughts of it as an older low resolution phone that I should upgrade.
It can objectively be a waste of money but practical concerns require people to buy new phones. Users have no control over the fact that the OS and apps get ever more resource hungry despite marginal generally unimportant improvements in utility.
I think most people don't upgrade their phone until something breaks, maybe that's what is driving cycle length. That underlines the marketing genius of non-user replaceable batteries, which are usually the first thing to go.
Agreed, though I also add "unbearably slow" as a form of being broken. Whether you view this as the cost of running newer software/webpages with fancier animations, a collective form of donations to developers using less efficient languages/frameworks, or an externality pushed onto users by the ad industry may vary.
No. Fully 10% think that AND admit it. Another 20% think it but like to pretend otherwise. Another 10% think it's a waste of money, but since it's their company paying for it are happy to accept. And another 20% think it would be crazy to pay 1000 pounds for a phone, but then follow up and explain they got a great deal and only pay 100 a month extra for the next 24 months plus 250 up front.
To add to this, all the major phone carriers in the states engineer their plans to force you to buy new phones either through discounts or "free" bonus phones from them in order to get good value for what you are paying. It is almost always cheaper to go with a cheap MVNO plan and pay for your phone outright, you will come out ahead instead of paying $80-$100 a month with a major carrier while getting a "free" phone with the caveat you have to stick with them for 2 years. Its all engineered to get you to spend more money, if you look at the prices on MVNOs you will realize you are getting scammed - I pay $10/month for my minimal cellular plan through redpocket and getting more data only costs tens of dollars more, it doesn't come close to tmobile's prices.
Yeah, it's interesting because they did that here until about 2016 (I think).
Then it reversed and it was (say) 600 for a handset or free handset and 40 more a month for 24m (960 extra total) with the handset free. Same contract either way.
But I think a lot of people just kept getting the 24m contract. I went though it with my lodger and lent him the 600 because I think it takes the piss to do this.
Here in the UK at least there are a bunch of resellers who will give you a sim only contract and use one of the big three networks. So it's easy/affordable at least to just do that. I hope the US has this too...
All of the major phone carriers have decent plans on their prepaid side now. You don't get a discount on a phone, but you usually get to pay the sticker price, tax included.
MVNO deals can be better, but there's uncertainty from having a 3rd party, and often the MVNOs don't or can't offer x GB of high speed data with low speed data for the rest of the month. But going from like $80 to $30 is good enough for me, I don't need to go all the way down to $10
The only way I see purchasing every year making sense is if you always, without exceptions, trade-in and upgrade to the latest model phone. The current priciest iPhone (for 64gb) is $1100 for the 11 Pro Pax. If you were to trade in an last-gen XS Max, you'd get $450 in trade-in value and thus only pay $650 for the new phone. The value of that would then continuously roll over into new upgrades (provided you never crack the screen or damage the phone ever, since that immediately causes it to lose $200-400 in trade-in value), meaning you are always paying for a phone but you will always have the latest and greatest model and the value that goes into that.
Private sales of electronics can be a hassle and carry some risk. There's something to be said for a low effort trade-in (or sale to Amazon) even if it doesn't maximize the return.
Buyer claims they never received the item/item wasn't as described/etc. There's a chargeback. Plenty of horror stories on eBay. Not to say don't do it but there's a lot to be said for taking the easy path from my perspective. (And electronics probably have more of this type of thing than many other categories.)
oh right, though that can happen with anything on ebay. i thought you were thinking of something specific to phones, like reading /cloning the memory/disk of the phone or something along those lines.
To add, unless there's proof (and sometimes even when there is proof) a buyer can just tell eBay/craigslist/etc that the phone didn't have Find My iPhone turned off (which would mean they can't use the phone) and get a refund that way without even needing to chargeback ebay.
When our employer plan had a higher cap on monthly compensation for phones for those of us required to be on call and check mail I would just bury the upgrade cost into the monthly billing. They have since reduced the amount by a third so it covers the average phone bill and it really does make me think more than once about whether an upgrade nets me anything
fwiw, I am quite happy with the 8+ and I am not even sure what it would take me to upgrade. phones would have to become super light, fold-able, or even perhaps translucent or such to pique my interest at this point.
"Purchasing every year" is a different question of course. When I upgrade, I do buy the latest but I still have an iPhone X. (I'd probably have upgraded this year but with no travel, I'll probably just wait another year.)
Anyone not living under the poverty line can in theory save for a luxury good, but that doesn't mean they otherwise live a luxurious lifestyle. In my country you see some really poor people living in pretty terrible conditions but who own luxury cars.
It might be worth it. A family in my street migrated from Kosovo to Belgium, and returns every year for the holiday. They aren't rich but have a second hand BMW. It's the only car that survives the trip from/to their holiday, so it's cheaper than buying a new car.
That 45% includes folks paying them off every month, folks buying new cheaper models, folks being given other people's old phones, and folks buying used/refurbished phones. It doesn't mean they aren't a luxury good: The newest, latest iPhones are still some of the more expensive on the market, and a lot of onlookers can't tell one from the other.
Completely and totally agree. The price of a new construction house in Redmond WA is around $1,400,000 USD and involves lots of paperwork and rules to be able to qualify to buy.
The price of a similarly specified house in Iowa or West Virginia in a very affluent zip code is less than $600,000, some closer to $400,000. It is conceivable that a married couple with 10 years of savings could buy this house cash and continue working remote as they please!
> Imagine borrowing money to buy anything, including a house. Yikes!
Is this a joke? The 30 year mortgage is possibly the single most powerful financial tool available to an average person. It allows you to leverage hundreds of thousands of dollars for just a few percent down. Imagine going to your stock brokerage and asking for 1000% margin on a $10,000 account. You would be laughed at. Yet that's precisely what a mortgage allows you to do. In the US at least, home ownership is also incredibly tax advantaged as well, to the point that it is almost impossible to build wealth otherwise for a normal working class person.
Please explain to me why it's beneficial to society to people to work 30 years, paying all sort of interest and fees to middle men and excluding the median citizen from home ownership?
Dare I remind you that a single income family could afford a new construction home with just 4 years of salary in the 1950s and 1960s.
Build more houses, make everyone that can go remote, remove the needless fake money bidding wars that come from easy leverage for those who qualify.
It is scientifically proven that when a human owns something instead of rents it, they take much better care of their property and their community (source: google). Mortgages and renting just bring despair and trigger apocalyptic emotions in humans, which is why the Bronx looks like the Bronx, and Bellevue looks like Bellevue.
> Mortgages and renting just bring despair and trigger apocalyptic emotions in humans, which is why the Bronx looks like the Bronx, and Bellevue looks like Bellevue.
I’m assuming you’re referring specifically to the South Bronx with your comment. An area that is in the state it’s in primarily because of decades of racist redlining that prevented any sort of leveraged investment in properties and services.
It's less tax-advantaged in the US under current tax law than it used to be depending upon housing prices where you live and whether you itemize deductions. But, in general, I certainly agree. The idea that there's something inherently wrong with getting a mortgage is silly. (Obviously, some people do buy more house than they can afford.)
How do you feel about those who are excluded from home ownership due to not qualifying for a mortgage because of arbitrary rules and supply constrictive zoning laws?
>Giving up 1% of your income each year isnt taken lightly.
Unless you're like me in which case you give up about 10% of your income each year on absolutely frivolous shit you just had to have but then used for about a week only to never touch again. Oh the joys of totally shot impulse control. That definitely includes a few smartphones.
I think next time though I'll just get a dingy piece of crap. All a smartphone really is to me is a browser in my pocket. Don't need a 4k screen for that. Won't fall for the stupid gimmicks next time.
Well.. I say that but, if I had much control over it it wouldn't be called impulse buying :(
I find many of the "cheap" phones better for my needs. I want a small phone, one that can live in a pocket without worry in the field (military). I need a phone with a removable battery (security thing where I work). I need a phone with a headphone jack (ie headphones without Bluetooth). So very few of the flagship phones are even an option.
The real trick is to find impulse buys that aren't truly expensive for you.
This can in turn be directed into its own kind of hobby. It's common for people who can't afford the actual thing they wanted to collect the marketing materials around it instead - like, instead of buying a luxury sports car, you get a poster for that car and hang it on the wall. It can be done creatively and redirect you towards your actual interests, instead of getting the high ticket product itself and learning once again that it did not magically improve life and mostly sits unused.
Funnily enough, Sony made that decision for me by ending their awesome "compact" line. I don't even think there's a current smartphone that fits my parameters (high-end, 5" or smaller, waterproof, dual SIM.)
That said, I've arrived at the "Waste of Money" conclusion regardless. What exactly is the point of buying a new one? I'll rather replace the battery on my XZ2c. It's the green option too.
Isn't the iPhone SE 2020 close to that? Dual sim with eSim, 5.4", waterproof and latest CPU/GPU. I would expect to get at least 5 years of usage including OS updates out of it, so the slightly higher price compared to the XZ2c seems justifiable.
Get an iPhone 11 or SE and use eSIM with one of the providers. I am quite happy with my iPhone right now, with a Vodafone eSIM and a physical SIM for my other phone line.
Apple had a lot of work to do still with dual sims. There’s quite a number of weird quirks from apps expecting only one phone number. T-Mobile’s scam blocker only uses the physical sim. Messages get confused if someone in a group switched to your other number. Etc.
One other one I think Apple has resolved recently is sometimes mobile data will stop working until you disable one of the lines.
i had the z3 compact and then the xz1 compact. really great phones and i still have both of them and use the xz1 for mapillary and then as a music player the rest of the time
i begrudgingly upgraded to samsung's s10e because I wanted something with a better camera and also wireless charging.
the only thing you would have a problem with is the size of the screen is though. dunno the exact size. its 'small' compared to most phones these days but I would still prefer something a bit smaller.
but the way things are going, I won't ever be upgrading again. unless phones start adding back the headphone jack at some point in the future
One reason for this requirement is that you want one SIM for your work number and one for your private number, so that you don't have to carry two phones. (You could forward one to the other as a workaround, but that doesn't help with SMS or outgoing calls.)
That's exactly the use case for me. I own a business and don't want to give out my personal number for anything related to the business side. Helps me stay organized. I know when a call is coming through I know the nature of the call before I pick up.
If you use Whatsapp you could have two different whatsapp accounts - one for your business with Whatsapp Business and another regular account. For this you need two SIMs
If you stay outside of your home country but still need to operate, say, bank accounts that require a number from the home country itself, dual SIMs are needed, especially for receiving OTPs etc.
My use case would be I have my regular SIM and I have a SIM/SIMs for international travel. In practice, I use an older phone for this purpose but if I had dual-SIMs I wouldn't need to.
Smartphones have matured; there are few new essential functionalities. Data point: the phone I use was launched 2016 and I rarely (or never? can't remember if ever) run into any problems doing whatever I need to.
My guess is the same statistic would have skewed differently say 10-15 years ago.
Seconded. My daily driver is a Galaxy S6 (launched in March 2015) and I don't feel any need to upgrade for the hardware. (Although the model I own, G920A, is particularly locked down, and which I am not happy about.) I'm hoping it lasts long enough that I can replace it with a Librem 5 as my daily driver. (Might get a pinephone earlier than that so I can help make that a reality).
Yes, but it's still hard for phones to communicate with peripherals in meaningful ways, especially via USB. IOS is a bit better on that matter, Android OTG is a catastrophe. I understand why a lot of people prefer iPhone, especially artists and musicians.
Everyone knew this was coming. It happened to TVs, it happened to desktops, it happened to laptops, and it's happening to phones.
Apple's biggest competitors are either playing a different game (the Chinese companies get to serve a completely different domestic market, and their international plays are at the very least part of a national soft power strategy), or already diversified (Samsung).
To be fair I'm sure Apple did lots of research and already knew these numbers. I'm curious to if they "abuse" this to get better sales of the "last gen" iphones.
isnt this switch in guidance mainly because the revenue from games/mtx is only going to grow and apple has almost exhausted the market of people that can afford iphones
I'm still using a OnePlus 5T - and I'm increasingly thinking that if it ever breaks I'll just find another one on eBay. Literally don't see any point in spending £700-800 on a new model, and this one still has a headphone jack - why would I upgrade? It's still fast enough for everything, even for games - been playing Genshin Impact in max details and it's smooth as butter.
I used mine for 5 years until it I dropped it and the screen broke (shattered, wouldn't respond to touch anymore). It was a great smartphone. I had the 64gb model.
I typically got a new iPhone every two years up to the X. The increase in battery, cpu performance and camera quality was worth it.
The X is fast enough with great camera and still good battery life although I can tell the battery is starting to loose noticeable capacity, still fine for daily use.
Will probably upgrade to a 12 which will be a three year change. Apple has kept me happy with ongoing software updates, I can hand the X down and it will continue to be supported for a couple more years and be useful.
I can see the trend continuing though where I might go 4 or 5 years or more between phones as the tech gains become smaller and battery life extends. They become more like cars (which I typically keep 10 years).
You can replace the battery for a fraction of a new one, I basically have that already.
My second battery of my 6s now makes trouble again, no other issues. I struggle to come up with a good reason why I shouldn't get a new battery for another 2 years.
Agreed. I upgraded to the X from a 6S and that was a huge bump in performance and capabilities.
Now that X is starting to show its age I am considering switching to the 12. All the upgrades since the X so far have not been appealing and did not warrant spending that much to me.
That's hilarious. They make the battery impossible to replace for consumers and then you need a new phone every two years and you see that as a feature.
Thats my point you don't need a new phone every two years, at three years I notice a slight decrease in battery life, I would imagine it will keep being useful for another two easily and I could take somewhere to get a new battery if I really wanted.
On the other hand I have old windows phone devices that had replaceable batteries I never utilized as they stopped updating the software after a year. Sounds like the Android side is similar. My Apple device have been some of the longest lived useful computing devices I have used even with the difficult to replace battery.
There is no need to buy the flagship phone every year or every two years. I can understand it if they cannot afford it, but anyone who’s into technology and can afford should make sure they have the latest software updates. They should also educate others about the importance of timely updates.
If you buy an iPhone on launch, you get five or six years of software updates.
I can only pity the people using their Android phones way past any hopes for software updates and being vulnerable to issues (security, software and hardware). I’m referring to most of the Android phones that don’t see updates after a year and all Android phones that don’t see updates after three years from launch. Pressuring Google or OEMs to provide software updates for longer hadn’t worked well, and Google is still slow on improving it.
> There is no need to buy the flagship phone every year or every two years. I can understand it if they cannot afford it, but anyone who’s into technology and can afford should make sure they have the latest software updates. They should also educate others about the importance of timely updates.
This is certainly not going to happen. When you get a new phone, there are only three ways it can hurt you: (1) costing money; (2) being the wrong shape; (3) having the latest software updates.
But getting the latest software updates is guaranteed to hurt you in way #3. If you update your software, a lot of it will stop working. Unsurprisingly, people have noticed this.
I have no idea what OP is on about. If we're talking firmware updates, I've yet to have software stop working after a system update or upgrade. There have been random crashes that 9/10 times clear up on their own after a couple of reboots, or needed to clear cached data and resumed working afterwards, but no show stoppers and certainly no software incompatibilities after the update was applied.
My most recent OS upgrade was on an LG phone with stock firmware (upgraded from Android 8 to 9). Flawless process, and this is on a phone that's gone several other updates and upgrades (biggest one was 8 to 8.1 as I recall) and has been in constant use for 2 years.
Been an Android user since the Google Nexus One, which I got on release day as I recall. Weirdly enough, it's the LED trackball I miss the most.
Anecdotal of course, but so far I've gone through I'd say 6-7 major Android version upgrades with no issues.
Switched from Nexus 5X to Android One phones (AKA stock Android experience, like Pixel but without its camera software), so I've gone through more major upgrades than most Android users.
Next one is going to be a difficult decision, since it seems like one or two Android One phones were released in the last year or so. That doesn't make me optimistic about the Android One line, but I have close to two years before I have to worry about that.
As do iphone users, though it's less frequent for iphones because there's less variety in the hardware/system (so can be more thoroughly tested before release).
The latest Android update is causing my Pixel2 some pretty significant QoL issues. I can no longer set certain apps or contacts to break through Do Not Disturb mode, and I can no longer reliably get to the top or bottom bars in full-screen apps.
I would rather take the risk of security, software and hardware issues than deal with this every day; I need to figure out how to downgrade.
Yes, it's important for users to update software. But it's also rather important for software to not break end user's products! I can completely understand why people avoid updates.
The security issue is a growing systemic problem. The hardware is fine, but the vendors no longer support it.
We are going to need a new revenue model or open-source paradigm to come to the forefront. The community approach is improving, but doesn't yet come close to the level of support one finds for Debian on the desktop.
OEM software is proprietary and almost always crappy anyway.
Luckily there are independent builds of Android (with varying degrees of customization) for lots of phones. For a good overview over which models are supported check out which phones LineageOS supports officially: https://download.lineageos.org/ (for more intensive research on a specific phone check out its XDA forum).
These devices are typically updated as long as someone cares about doing it. The Nexus 5 (released in 2013) is still receiving the most current versions of Android.
Android has had many kinds of security issues over the years leading to RCEs. The scariest issues are ones like the "Stagefright" vulnerability that let an attacker take over your device just by sending a malicious MMS, with no user interaction. That specific vulnerability is old and patched nearly everywhere, but there's zero reason to believe vulnerabilities just as disastrous and easy to exploit won't happen again, or that they won't affect a broad range of phone vintages, such as a range from before the Note 5 all the way to the Pixel 5, simultaneously. E.g., as best I can tell the Galaxy Note 5 stopped receiving updates around 2017, at Android v7. But in late 2019 a vulnerability was discovered allowing remote code execution of Android v7-v9 devices if an attacker can just get them to play a malicious video file. And since the Note 5 isn't receiving security patches, that'll be a threat every day forever until you upgrade. Think how many video files you see on social media, or video ads inside cheap apps you downloaded, or autoplaying videos online. Threat vectors are everywhere, and there's not a lot that classic "sensible online behavior" can do to protect you from this vulnerability.
Living with a phone that no longer receives security patches is taking the non-negligible risk that someday your phone will start transmitting your sensitive keystrokes and screen content and you won't even know it until the bad guy uses them.
It's tragic that Android phones are considered "good" when they provide three whole years of updates. Having spoken to an Android engineer about this I somewhat understand the legitimate technical/business drivers for that reality. But still, it's tragic that perfectly-good phones become a danger to users and incentivize otherwise-unnecessary upgrades because of their short update policies.
Sure, but the video vulnerability is just the quickest RCE vuln I could find for the Galaxy Note 5. I'll bet if I go back to the Android CVE database I could find more vulnerabilities of various kinds that the Note 5 is susceptible to, and that we'll uncover more in the future. And looking at Stagefright, the way you use your phone is no guarantee that you can dodge vulnerabilities.
It's up to you whether you are comfortable with the risk of running as unpatched phone. But a risk is very much present, and only using a couple of apps doesn't protect you from getting hacked and keylogged at the very least.
All the issues unpatched since Android 7 (which Wikipedia says is the latest version for Note 5). Your phone is about four major software releases behind from the current one.
If your question is what harm you have suffered or would suffer, that’s like asking what’s happen if you didn’t wear seat belts for just one week or a month and still drive at high speeds. One can also make up other analogies related to safety.
If we're going with the seatbelt analogy, the most recent update now requires me to use my car key to lock and unlock the seatbelt, and prevents me from using the radio when the seatbelt is engaged.
And given that the dangers aren't comparable, I would love to just opt out and continue using my old, possibly less safe, seatbelts.
There are systemic negative incentives. Bug fixes don't generate revenue, except in very indirect ways; making old hand sets annoying coerces hardware purchases. If you're a low-margin handset maker, that's a combination that suggests an obvious course of action.
I am yet to see Android vulnerability in the wild. This in India where everyone is on android and many using years old mobile. Compared to frequently viruses on windows machines. So are these devices hacked and the users do not know them? What area indications to know your device is hacked?
Perhaps it's like Linux on the playstation 2: During the time when sony enabled users to install Linux no one cracked the security. As soon as sony blocked linux, people cracked the security to restore it (and also copy the games...).
So long as the malware is coming from inside the playstore there isn't as much reason to exploit the vulnerable software...
The thing I valued from my latest upgrade was a better camera. But the phone cost the same as two decent DSLRs. It just doesn't make sense to upgrade again.
A canon rebel and the cheapest prime lens they offer can be had for well under 1k and will take better photos than a phone. Can’t argue with the laws of physics, its much easier to get fidelity with larger lenses and sensors.
Same with me... I have a S8... I wouldn't mind having the triple camera lens for focus and better lighting and recording in 4K... And then eventually 5G.
Everything else doesn't matter. I will wait another round before updating, though.
Smartphones drop in value so fast, it makes sense to buy a one-two year old flagship for a third of the price. And it won't be that far behind current flagships.
I'll go contrarian on this one: I have bought a new iPhone every single year since the first one. It was like $650 back in 2007, and for the last couple years it's been $1700. (I always buy the maxed out model, even though the cost of the extra storage is a ripoff. But I usually sell it or bequeath it to some family member when I upgrade, and a year later the extra storage always seems in retrospect like the right move...)
So that's a lot of money, and the cost is significant for most people, even us software engineer types.
But: nothing I have ever seen in my life (including computers, where my adult life has so far seen me go from a 16 MHz 68020 with 4MB of RAM to a 3 GHz 10-Core Intel Xeon W with 128GB of RAM) has improved anywhere close to as rapidly as the iPhone. I feel like smartphones are one of those under-appreciated ways that "life is getting better" that's hard to quantify, but more evenly distributed. Wages may be stagnating for some swaths of society, and fascism and apartheid may be resurgent, but smartphones are getting massively better for everybody.
I had an epiphany a few years back, when I glanced at the baby monitor and saw the nice old lady who helps us clean our house on Saturdays. I happened to notice that her iPhone was the same model as mine at the time, the iPhone 7 Plus — and that she was swiping through some child photos (presumably her grandchildren back in the Philippines).
Now, she works full-time, but has a side hustle doing weekend cleaning for families like ours, where both parents work and have young kids. We pay her the wage she asked for, which I think is roughly prevailing hourly wage for this kind of thing in our area, and probably isn't that much different — adjusted for inflation — than in 2010 or 2000 or 1980 or 1960.
But holy fucking shit, her iPhone is different! She can make unlimited free (FaceTime) video calls back home to her kids, or grandkids. She can get their latest photos, and see them on a big ultra-highres screen. She can point her camera at shit and see it translate (sloppily and drunkenly though it may seem)by the latest trained-model "AI" app from Google. Etc etc.
I myself also benefit from all those things. I am not even a heavy phone user — I mean I am, I use my phone dozens of times per day, but I prefer not to use it. Almost everything it can do, my big-screen(s) computer can do better, so I always use a computer if possible.
Even so: I use it to take a lot of photos/videos, and view those. I also read books, listen to audiobooks, read Twitter, or read this website. I don't use Slack on it, unless there is some important emergency or weird case at work (but then, I am glad I can). I view and edit notes, which might be shopping lists or E2E test notes or whatever. Oh and I use it to check my internal security cameras (which double as baby/child monitors).
Every single new generation of phone makes many of these things massively better.
So like... "waste of money"?? It's obviously subjective, but... to me buying a new car is a waste of money. Any new car. When my wife was pregnant with our third child, we bought a new Nissan X-Trail for like $25,000 and I was like Ugh what a waste of money this is like 15 years of the latest smartphone...
(Well I mean, I was like that in my mind... not being the one who was actually pregnant, I said something like, "Sure, let's do that!" :-P )
YMMV obviously — if you just want a phone to make calls and send texts, then sure. But if you actually use your smarphone a dozen or more times per day, I think there are a lot of things that many people spend money on (cars, clothes) that might better fit the "waste of money" label.
> Every single new generation of phone makes many of these things massively better.
Do you really think that's still true? For the first five or six iterations of the iPhone it really did feel like the new model instantly made the old model feel old. Ever since around iPhone 7 or so I don't get that impression any more. It's a mature product and the new one is faster and takes better pictures but, frankly, the last one was fast enough and it's camera was great too.
If your phone is how you spend your free time, then it's essentially your hobby and from that point of view spending a couple of thousand dollars on your hobby isn't absurd at all. It probably works out to about $5 per day which is something lots of people can afford.
You're right that the pace has slowed. But yes, I do still feel that every year it still gets a lot better... but perhaps the "massiveness" is indeed decreasing.
The phone isn't even how I ever choose to spend my free time; it's a last resort. I am known at work as the curmudgeonly phone-hater, always astonished that people use their phone to say, order from Amazon or UberEats, or reply to an email — surely such tasks are better left until you are at a large-screen device with high-precision input devices! (I mainly read or listen to stuff with it.)
Nevertheless, I use my phone in the elevator, while waiting for a train, while waiting in any kind of line, while, uh, you know on the toilet, etc... even if relegated to garbage time, it's still dozens of times per day.
I think it is even less that $5 per day — recently I buy the $1700 maxed out phone but usually sell it for $800 or so. So maybe $3 per day. Worth it, IMO.
I tend to wait a fairly long time between upgrades (I still have an iPhone X) but I still generally agree. If you can afford it, it's hard for me to say that something you use all the time is a waste of money. The waste of money IMO is something which I have absolutely been guilty of at times which is buying something for a few hundred dollars and then barely using it.
The counter argument is that it is a waste if you aren’t making full use of the difference in spec sheets. Its like buying a car that can go 200mph then using it to drive A to B at the speed limit, same as you can do in a honda civic. Phones are faster, sure, but how much power do your use cases actually require?
For me, all I do is email/text/call/mobile web, so getting a processor 10x faster than last generation is a waste of compute resources considering the last generation did all of the above without strain.
Since they were released, I have owned exactly 3 iPhones. I'm a developer, not working in mobile, so my phone is for calls and that is about it. I've got computers all around me, there is no need to ever use my phone beyond calls and navigation apps. I see others put their identity into their phones, and I just shake my head. Just tools, people.
It's sometimes necessary in order to get latest android security updates.
We need a way to break free of vendor update depency with an independent distro. Many perfectly fine phones become obsolete just because of the OS not keeping up.
It should be illegal to discontinue a phone and not release the boot unlock codes so that people can toy with it and hack together a usable distro.
> The research was commissioned by musicMagpie as figures from its Annual Phone Depreciation Report found mobile phones can lose up to 68 per cent of their original purchase value in the first six months.
It should be noted that musicMagpie sells used phones along with other goods.
I haven't been able to find anything else except more news articles.
Around me, ever fewer people are buying high-end phones. Our uses for smartphones haven't evolved in over 5 years, yet the hardware has progressed fast. Unless you're into AR/VR, competitive 3D gaming, or publishable photography/video, there's no reason to spend more than $300. Especially since sealed batteries and short OS updates (even on the Apple side) and rapid HW progress make Mobiles a very fungible investment. My PC is 7yo, my phone 3yo... guess which feels old, and will get a replacement budget commensurate to its useful life ?
9 in 10 adults realizing that these soapbars are good enough for selfies and instagram only and the joke features of the latest phones doesn't justify spending the extra cash.
I’m not sure what policies are in other countries, but Canada’s providers offer financing for all phones on 2 year contracts. You are forced into a high cost plan (it’s not uncommon for a flagship phone to require a $90+ plan), and on top of that pay PHONE_COST/24 as a monthly payment (an extra $30-50).
I wonder how many adults think “easy comfortable payments over 24 months” isn’t the same as spending >$1000 for the latest phone up front.
Depends where you are in Canada. In Québec, plans seems cheaper in general. Koodo has good promos regularly. There was one a couple of weeks ago where you could've got an iPhone 11 for $648 total by staying with them for 2 years.
Promo was you pay $288 up front and the rest is paid with the $15 monthly tab on top of a plan, which starts at $40.
So for $288 and then $60/month you could get an iPhone 11 with unlimited calling/SMS and 5Gigs of data.
Obviously I know plans are much cheaper still in some other countries, but in Canada that was a good deal.
JFYI, The news here (Italy) is my bank writing me how they are offering 0% interest loans to buy (among other stuff) smartphones in their (actually their commercial partners') online catalogue.
Example:
Smartphone Samsung Galaxy 20 4G, 43.95 Euro x 20 months
Total 879.00 Euro, 0% fees, 0% interests
Too bad that that same phone can be bought at major electronics stores for 580-610 Euro.
The iPhone SE 64 GB for 24.95x20, total 499.00 Euro when the street price is more like 390-420 Euro.
I still have my OnePlus 5, 3 years now. The battery is not the best anymore, and I can see myself replacing it (the battery) in 2021. I thought about getting a new one, but I don’t need a high-end camera and the market for reasonably sized smartphones is vanishing small. Whenever I see something slightly interesting, it’s even bigger than the OP5 which is already at my upper limit (and I’m a 190 cm tall person with big hands)
The 2016 SE has a retina display and runs the latest version of iOS just fine. It's only a little taller but quite a bit thinner than the original iPhone. You can still buy used ones in excellent shape for well under $200. I'm not sure what I'm going to do when iOS stops supporting them -- maybe next year?
I was using 10 year old HTC ONE up until a few months back. The reason is simple - for my use cases getting a new phone didn't add anything - no new functionality, no new design.
In the past new phones used to mean some kind of additional function: either colors, or mp3 support, or bluetooth. Now it's faster CPU and more pixels in your camera. After you sync stuff from your old phone you don't even notice any difference.
Sadly, another "publication" on the HackerNews frontpage with really, really low quality.
Nine in 10 Adults? So how many did you survey? 2000, apparently. Not a bad number, still a bit low to use a word describing >5 billion people.
Regarding "Adults": From where? How old? How rich? Does it include female Indians aged 50-80? Apparently they asked "Britons". Refreshing that it is not US biased for once, but that is something very relevant conveniently omitted from the conclusion while still being extremely vague.
But let's get back to n=2000. How did they get so many? Oh, apparently they used OnePoll[1], which is a for-profit company specializing in PR-surveys.
And, did you really ask "would you agree that X is a waste of money"? If I would propose such a loaded question in an academic study I would probably brought behind the barn by any respectable researcher. Ask for example "How much would you agree with the following statement: If a new smartphone model is released, I feel the need to buy it" you would probably get a very different result.
But let's not unfairly presume. What did they ask? Well, the primary source is nowhere to be found. Just a bunch of News and blogs citing each other. Some wrongly cite "The musicMagpie Annual Phone Depreciation Report" [0] which does not mention this, but apparently lead to this study.
Wait: musicMagpie? So, this "study" was apparently "conducted" by a used phone reseller, directly profiting from the sentiment this propaganda piece is selling?
Meaning, this is literally, completely, PR fluff.
I am trying hard to not pull the "HN is becoming Reddit" meme here, but please enlighten me how this uncritical reception of marketing dressed up as "science" (?) seen in this thread is different from the average /r/technology experience.
>And eight in 10 don’t like feeling pushed by manufacturers to keep up with the times – opting to get their tech as and when they need it instead.
This is why I opt to buy iPhones, even at a premium up front. I bought my iPhone 7 at launch four years ago and it's still going strong. Apple still supports it with iOS 14, so it's good for at least another year. Newer models look nice but my 7 still just works.
Why buy at launch? I'm usually ~2-3 years behind the latest, and especially recently that has worked absolutely fine. I buy my phones second hand in good condition for ~80% less than what they cost at launch. Looking at my current phone, a 7, I realise I'm actually 4 years behind and didn't even notice.
I find buying a phone and getting settled into it a big hassle. It's more important to me to do that as infrequently as possible. The cost savings are trivial to me when amortized over the life of the phone. If I buy an iPhone at launch, then I'm set for 4-6 years before iOS updates for it cease.
The trick to doing that is to buy something new, premium and high quality at first, or eventually, and first hand.
It is cheaper over time.
Not only will it last you 5 years or more, you can also resale it to subsidize the next new device.
When you buy a cheap phone or any consumer electronic 3 years old and second hand, you are already deep into its lifecycle and utility. It will just become a paperweight when you get the next device out of necessity.
If they last 5 years, buying a used phone after three years for 20% of the original price sounds like a great deal. Two years later, you'd buy the next one.
After doing that for ten years, you'd have spent the price of one new phone, while buying new and using them for 5 years will cost you the price of two new phones over ten years.
My latest iPhone died after cycling in the rain with it for a little too long after it was previously dropped and cracked, and I'm back to my iPhone X (3 years old) and it's perfectly fine, more or less indistinguishable in performance from my latest one.
I wasn't planning on upgrading this year (a first), but this model has a dodgy mute switch that I never got fixed, so it looks like I will be after all.
The only reason I finally moved from my 6 was storage. It worked well enough, but having bought the smallest storage option at the time, I constantly was deleting pictures, music, etc. to keep it functional. Storage will always get sucked dry by system updates, etc.
Even after iOS updates stop, it's fine. iPhone 6 here. No iOS updates, but all major apps work fine. Aside from those that lack hardware support for AR.
One thing that is missing from an iPhone 6 or older is the Exposure Notifications API. I just upgraded my 5s, but apart not being able to use the NHS contact tracing app, it worked fine, albeit a little slowly in places.
No? I still have a backup iPhone 6 I use to play music/podcasts on my stereo and which I travel with to Europe with a local SIM for GPS etc. At some point, I'll retire it but it still works fine for what I need it for (which isn't everything but I haven't noticed real issues with it being out of support).
For me it’s not even about wasting money, it’s just that the new phones don’t... offer anything I need, really.
I have an SE 1 and I’m firmly of the opinion that I could wait another five or six years before upgrading. It just... works, and does everything I need it to do.
Of course, that’s not to say that new phones are categorically unnecessary or useless, just in my case as a low-maintenance, non power-user, it does what I need.
My phones last about 5 years and my last phone, the Moto G6 Plus, cost about $200.
They're not very useful computers in relative terms, beyond being very portable, and there is a lack of compelling new features in new phones.
Right now there is the spec grind which moves some people to upgrade, but most people won't see a benefit. I suspect phones are more important as a fashion accessory or status symbol at this point.
Funny enough: I had the G6 Plus and I would be honestly happy to have used it even a few more years. Just the lack of security updates let me upgrade my phones nowadays.
Camera are still making good spec progress, faster than other features. This has a big impact I feel, parents/grandparents like high quality photos of kids. And in general when you take some photos, see the results are average vs your friends latest camera I think this must trigger upgrade thoughts.
I upgraded our household as VoWifi is needed due to limited reception but I suspect thats a fairly small user case...
This certainly was true a decade ago. It isn't anymore.
I spend a lot of time staring at photos from tons of different cameras. I pull in unprocessed raw and JPEG photos from DSLR and flagship phone reviews to verify that metadata extraction and raw image data gets decoded properly by PhotoStructure.
There is surprisingly little difference in image quality from, say, the OG Google Pixel to the pixel 2 and 3.
The difference between well-lit scenes at the same zoom on an iphone 8, X, and 11 is minimal.
If you show someone photos from a current flagship versus a 3-4 year old flagship, composition will matter (much) more than the hardware as to which is seen as the better image.
Clearly you know more about this than me, so a question, I thought the improvements were significant for edge cases of what would be a good photos. So if you use old/new in a well lit enviroment either is good, but come dusk the more recent generation are much better in getting a decent photo in a less than ideal enviroment... or have I fallen prey to the marketing!
(Guh, didn't mean to come off as pompous! I was surprised when I realized this a while back and thought it would be interesting to share).
Anyway, you're correct: low-light photography is where there's been more recent progress, but it's mostly via computational imagery. Having a depth sensor for portrait shots has helped improve the simulated bokeh, as well.
My Google Pixel 1 takes fractionally worse nighttime shots as a current-gen pixel 4. They're both usable, but the pixel 4 is much faster at getting the shot.
Everyone is shifting torward foldable displays and or wearables due to the fact that since we can only get marginal improvements in smartphones at this time.
Sure microled displays or Telephoto lenses are neat but at this time I won't upgrade my iPhone 11 Pro for a few years because I just got a new Apple Watch series 6. I generally hold onto devices until the battery stops charging to ~80 percent or less.
Using a new sealed 2016 iPhone SE that I paid $60 for about 5 months ago.
It replaced a 2016 iPhone SE I cracked the screen on. Since Apple charges $129 for a display, and since I don’t have any access to touch and proximity sensor calibration equipment, I can’t properly do it by myself.
I paid $99 for that one brand new last year.
It replaced a 2016 iPhone SE (from 2016) with a battery that only held a charge for a hour and also fell apart - the glue holding the display module together wore out.
The 2016 iPhone SE runs the latest iOS 14. I think the 12 mp camera is suitable enough for my needs, the square sides are great for standing it up without the use of a tripod to take a photo, and I have a headphone jack still. There hasn’t been a iPhone since that’s come close to being as small. Still, I’d like to see it get even smaller. I haven’t found a single phone since that’s had a compelling reason for me to sacrifice this size without switching to Android.
To date I’ve spent approximately $560 on iPhones since retiring my next favorite phone of all time: my Nokia Lumia Icon. I still miss windows phone.
I used to buy the latest and greatest, but stopped a few years ago. Now my main priority when buying a phone is price and battery life, and I only replace a phone when I physically break my old one. Currently using a Moto G7 Power and very happy with it.
Of course if a good phone comes out with a physical keyboard, I'd grab it almost instantly.
I think they’re probably wrong but it depends how you look at it.
I buy the latest one when AppleCare runs out. That gives me the latest handset, 2 years protection against my own stupidity, the best eBay return after that period expires, the best battery life always and the happy period before iOS gets slow.
If I don’t do that I have to pay up full price for repairs, involve third party repairer risk or write the whole handset off if I do something stupid (which does happen). Also I would have to put up with declining battery health, slower operating systems and worn connectors etc.
That applies to the SE as well which has a really low total cost of ownership over two years with all risks mitigated taking resale value into account.
Trick is to plan and save up for things you’re going to buy while you’re using the last one.
Buying new consumer electronics or durable goods is mostly for the birds, e.g., people who have their money separated from them most easily. I have an iPhone 6S and will consider a used iPhone SE 2020 at some point when I drive this one into the ground.
Or, you know, people who like their tech. I mean, I know I could use an iphone 6s or whatever other phone until it dies. But for a piece of tech I use more than any other, I'll spend the extra dough. Part hobby, part utility. Note also the extra dough here is pretty small compared to say a car hobbyist.
In many other ways I'm fairly frugal. I very rarely buy new clothes for instance, and for non-tech things am pretty minimalistic.
Damn straight. My budget for phone hardware is $100 per year, with average lifetime of 3 years. Am typing this from a perfectly functional phone on a service only (i.e. no "free" phone) subscription, unlimited data and calls.
Now we just need https://postmarketos.org/ to mature so we can actually have maintained, secure software running on our perfectly-serviceable hardware.
I’m fine with my 6S+ and don’t need any of the newer features on any of the phones. I don’t do much photography and only use about 10 apps. It’s just big enough to use for Kindle in a pinch.
The biggest reason, though, is the headphone jack. $160 for wireless headphones is ridiculous. They’re easy to lose and constantly having to recharge is just fucking stupid. Modern earbuds are horribly uncomfortable for me by putting pressure in the ear canal to hold them in place, so I have to use the older earbud style.
I like Apple’s stuff, in general, but I curse the day that their asshole product designers went totally wireless.
I bought a iPhone 11 Pro, I hardly use its camera, never play games, only whatsapp and navigation. I am not interested in downloading apps... And I am over 40 now, maybe that's why.
The experience of even basic daily activities can suck on a 100$ Android phone. I have a Xiaomi Mi A3, the proximity sensor algorithm is so bad that I constantly press buttons with my cheek when I am talking to someone on the phone. And Xiaomi does not provide any updates to fix this because probably it wouldn't make sense to support this cheap phone further.
Having said that, op would probably do fine with a non-pro iPhone.
I guess I don't regret it that much. Maybe I could get a iPhone 11 instead of Pro and feel the same. Now I am thinking to get rid of my phone and use a watch instead.
My old phone battery wasn't perform very well, I have heard good words about iPhone 11's battery, I think that's the reason I bought it.
The biggest reason I want a new phone is a better camera. I have a DSLR, but I just don’t bring that with me all the time, and the camera on the new iPhones is really good.
It eventually gets to the point where all tech items are good enough. Even Apple's iPhone has reached a point where there's no compelling reason to upgrade. This after drip feeding features across product releases to keep users locked into an upgrade cycle. But there's just a point where even they run out of things to add. You can only make 'great' be 'better' through so many product iterations before the buyers start to yawn.
I think in the last 10 years a lot of tech products have actually regressed. phones (and cars, televisions, bathroom scales and refrigerators) force all kinds of annoying post-sales "engagement" with the manufacturer.
Every employer lends me a phone (an old iPhone), so I haven't had to buy one in almost 10 years, nor having to deal with a provider, and it makes me very happy.
I'm on a 24 month upgrade schedule mainly to benefit from improved camera tech, though I'm probably going to stop - in almost every way my current phone (Pixel 4) is a sidegrade, rather than an upgrade, to my old phone (LG V30) and I only upgraded because my old phone has gotten quite damaged - I'm very clumsy.
Offtopic: How are finding the Pixel 4? I've mulling over upgrading from my curent Pixel 1 to a Pixel 4a (not exactly the same as Pixel 4, I know). My current phone is still working mostly fine, but the camera is a bit wonky because I've dropped it too many times.
I quite like it. As expected of it being a Google phone, the software is very good and you get updates before anyone else. The camera is also good, especially the software, but I miss not having a wide angle lens and manual ISO/focus/exposure controls. Battery life isn't great compared to other phones but I charge overnight so it doesn't bother me. I also like the form factor a lot, it's quite thin which makes it much easier to use one-handed.
Except for (hopefully) 5G I can't even name a specific feature. But one thing I appreciate very much is its new SE-based brick-like design. The old SE was the most iconic phone on the market. But then: The design is actually the least used feature since everybody uses covers. Gaah!
I was hoping this discussion could enlighten me/us about the new security measures implemented in latest phones avb? And how the latest security updates are essential in protecting your data when crossing border. That makes buying a latest device same as updating your security.
IPhone 7 Plus user here. Have swapped the battery twice (the last time I did it myself). Still don’t feel the urge to buy the latest. I’m probably going to keep going with it until Apple stops supporting updates for it.
One of the issue is he battery just goes bad after a year and a half so your battery life is down a lot. Then you have to send it in to get it replaced. Plus its with you all the time so it can break pretty easily.
If the cost is considered disproportionately high (I'm not entirely familiar, as I buy only budget or out-of-production ones), the implication is that one is buying a brand.
Even not accounting the iPhone, I think mobile phones has been always (or at least, for a long time) considered part of one's status; that will never depreciate.
I cannot fathom paying significantly over $100 for a phone, especially one you carry around all the time and beat up and will be almost worthless in a couple years even if you treat it very carefully.
The only impetus for upgrading a phone for me is if it starts failing at being a phone. I upgraded my old SE to the new SE when it was on steep discount earlier this summer solely because my old one took a few tumbles in its life and was dropping nearly every call.
Other than that, the phone wasn’t slow at all. The rear camera was acceptable. The battery life was fine. If it wasn’t dropping calls I would still be using that phone. In a lot of ways I miss it, primarily the size and the light weight compared to the new SE, but the design flaw of getting dust under the front camera lens pushed me to the new SE ultimately since it made the front camera next to useless after a year in a pocket. It happened in my iPhone 5, my 5s, and was never fixed in the SE1, lending further creedence to my theory that engineers at apple don’t use the products they design, or at least certainly not for the typical length of time that an end user would before being handed the next generation device to use from work, before most critical issues crop up.
The longevity of recent phones is a huge contrast from the early days, where an iphone 3g would struggle to function on the mobile web or basic apps compared to the 3gs, but those days are long gone. iphones have been more than powerful enough for 99% of peoples use cases since the iphone 6s. A 6s or SE1 is still a perfectly performant phone today.
When considering the survey findings, it is worth bearing in mind that the survey was commissioned by a company that deals in refurbished/second-hand goods, including smartphones...
Why is this surprising? I also think that buying the latest smartphone is a waste of money, but every two years I find myself upgrading to the latest iPhone anyway.
That’s exactly how everyone spends their money. Most things are a waste of money but they still pay for it. Oh check out that pair, that’s hot, I got to have it
I have the iPhone XS Max and I have no desire to buy the latest and greatest. I don't believe that 5G will improve the speeds I get on my phone as I get no where near the performance that 4G promises. Until the phone stops working or they come up with something really amazing I'll stick with this phone.
Average upgrade cycle is 24-36 months now. 75-85% of that is a "current" model. The caveat here is that "latest" device and flagship devices are not the same thing. For example, the latest oneplus can be either the flagship 8T or the new mid-range Nord.