Is this a cultural thing? I have noticed that people from Latin cultures are very generous, particularly with the hungry.
I was at a small Mexican restaurant, waiting to order some takeout. Outside, on the pavement, there were a few diners enjoying their meals, including a Hispanic person who looked like he worked construction or some similar trade. A vagrant was passing by, and he slowed down, ever so slightly, at the sight and smell of the delicious foods inside. The diner quickly called out to the vagrant and said he should order something for himself; it would be paid for.
It was a spontaneous act of charity from someone who was not too well off himself. It made quite an impression on me.
When I was like five years, we don't have money for food. Then maybe once a week we had liver beef (cheap meat).
Then my mother will cut one beef for each member of the family, But you always had the one that is the biggest.
My brothers and I fight for it.
To make things fair, we did a draw to select who will choose the first beef.
We call it "Sorteio do Bife".
Later as the country/economy progresses, it became a joke. Like if you don't hurry for something, you will lose the Draw.
It was not uncommon to NOT have enough, and the parents just look at the kids eating while they did not eat anything. And If you have other parents, you get your kids and ""appear"" by surprise at someone in lunchtime.
It was intended and a costume that if someone arrives at your house in lunch/dinner time, you share the food.
If you and I are going to a coffee place/bakery, I would ask something and offer to pay you because I don't know if you are in a good financial state or not. So by default, you Always offer to buy you something.
It is so ingrained inside you that I feel very sad when I throw away food. And I have a hard time leaving anything left on my plate.
I have to remind myself to eat less and that it is ok to leave food on my plate. That excess of food is bad but still.
I remember that my dream when I was a child was:
When I grow up, I will be rich, and I will eat filet mignon and Pepsi every day.
That was the peak of being rich for me.
Disclaimer: Today is Thanksgiving. Things are not perfect. Things are not all we want. But let's be thankful for the good things we have.
Be thankful for your friends, health, good humor.
If you don't have something to be thankful you still have power to do any good.
We argue, we downvote, we rage.
Be thankful we can still do it.
When I was growing up, Germans of a certain age, who grew up in Germany during WW2, seemed to be similarly determined to feed everyone who walked into their home.
I don't believe it's cultural, in as far as we're not conflating culture with shared misery (poverty, struggle for daily survival, food for self and family, roof over head, etc). For context: I emigrated from Eastern Europe in the mid 90s.
I've worked restaurants and blue collar jobs much longer than white collar ones, and it was easily the most formative period of my life. The heart that those of lesser means have, sharing whatever they can, is truly enlightening. It's an expression of care and comradery that seems to come out almost involuntarily and it's incredible to witness. Can almost categorically say it's not the case with upper middle and upper classes (in terms of my anecdotal experience, at least).
Obviously those with means can (AND DO) make a much greater impact in terms of charitable contributions and investments fighting poverty and homelessness, not dismissing that at all.
I think there's a degree of affluence at which the question changes from "how much can I give while still attending to my needs?" to "how much can I give while maintaining my social position?" If you're just getting by and you give all you can, there's a good chance that the community you're nourishing will pay it back in kind. On the other hand, if you're rich and give away most of your money, you're not going to get that lifestyle back. And I think that's where a stingy mindset begins to set in.
I also think more affluent people are often socialized to expect that generosity will be taken advantage of, which leads them to favor formalized charities where their responsibility is clearly and legally defined and limited.
The more affluent depend on their social position to gain membership in their community in a way that some others do not. Taking a vow of poverty means you reject that, and you probably don't have a position in a web of mutual obligation to fall back on.
That's an interesting way to look at it. However as someone with few/weak social connections, I feel like the calculus has been the exact opposite for me, as I've transitioned from broke college student to well-paid tech employee. When my bank account was near zero, I jealously guarded it, not having any reason to believe that charity to strangers or even acquaintances would be repaid. Now that I have plenty of savings, I don't think twice about giving away money, because I have no particularly elevated social position to guard (nor am I desirous of obtaining such).
I think the tipping point may be when you first get a job that allows you to save a meaningful amount of money. for me, this changed the question from "how much can I give and still make rent?" to "how much can I give and still hit my savings goal?". "will I ever be able to retire?" leads to a very different mindset from "how early will I be able to retire?".
Empathy and compassion. If you're close enough to their circumstances that you can feel their situation, you're more likely to be willing to help (literally, to feel like helping).
I wonder if it's related to the nature of the societal safety net.
Here's a somewhat strained comparison: a few years ago I listened to a podcast featuring Juan Pablo Villarino [1], who's hitchhiked through nearly 100 countries. If I remember correctly, his observation was that the hardest place to hitchhike was northern Europe, and that by comparison poor and even war-torn places were quite easy. The suggested explanation was that in northern Europe, the expectation is that if you are hitchhiking and relying on strangers, then you've done something weird to fall outside of the normal run of things, and you must be a weirdo. By contrast, in more chaotic places it's more plausible that you have just fallen through some cracks that anyone could fall through, and it's perfectly reasonable to need a lift (or a meal, or some other helping hand).
I can 100% confirm this. I have hitchhiked very poor and war-torn places, even hitchhiked over national borders near recent conflicts in the news, and you rarely wait long for a ride. First world countries on the poorer side, like Spain and Portugal, you can still hitchhike easily, but you might have to wait. Meanwhile, I've tried hitchhiking in the Netherlands and Germany, and good luck. While it is still possible, it is absolutely not a reliable mode of transportation. You can very easily be passed by hundreds of cars without getting a ride.
I know how much the HN crowd loves their numbers, so I'll try to put some very vague numbers on percentage chance a given driver is willing to pick up any hitchhiker at all (assuming they're able to, going the right way, have free space etc), based on my own experience:
- Portugal/Spain: ~5%
- France: ~3%
- Very rural France: ~10%
- Netherlands/Germany: ~0.3%
- Rural Netherlands: ~1%
- America, rural West: ~3-5%
- America, East: ~1-3%
- War-torn areas, rural: ~70%
- War-torn areas, city: ~20%
There are many other factors, of course: the number of cars per minute, the percentage of cars that have space available, the percentage of cars going your direction, your appearance, your gender, rides you refuse (women often have to refuse rides that seem a bit weird, or maybe to be extra safe they only want to ride with women, etc.) There's the baggage you're carrying, the time of day, the place you're standing, sign or no sign, if you look foreign (usually helps), smile or no smile, etc etc.
If anyone is on the edge about hitchhiking, I would definitely encourage trying it (either picking up hitchhikers, or hitchhiking yourself, once the world gets back to normal.) It's a beautiful sort of exercise in trust and generosity in a modern society that lacks both.
Years ago, before I first tried to hitchhike, I asked myself "is it practical?" That is, can you actually semi-reliably get places by hitchhiking? The answer: absolutely. Sure, you might have to wait a while for a ride, and sure, you might get some weirdos, but I have hitchhiked in many countries and have never had an issue that couldn't be solved by saying "hey, I gotta get out near here, thanks for the ride."
And if you're trying to convince yourself to try it, but are paralyzed by fear - just think: the strangers on the road are the same strangers at the grocery store, the same strangers in line at McDonalds, the same strangers in the chairs at the library. Why not stick out your thumb and pass the miles by with a fellow resident of this pale blue dot?
Australia has it's own set of problems too, with distances being so vast between capitals, I imagine if you're not on the east cost you're not going to see any at all.
I did once wonder to myself "Are there non-english language travel youtube channels about Australia", so I searched my home town in Japanese, and sure enough there was! This Japanese guy was hitchiking from all the major cities, he would do so mostly from truck stops.
One thing I noticed was that, whilst a decent amount of people wanted to help, they were rarely going where he wanted to go, and so it could take him a day or two to find a ride.
it is true for any culture where there is visible poverty. and where there is a stark scarcity of any particular resource that will make survival difficult.
for example, if you go to the middle east, they are very generous with food. poor feeding is part of islam. bedouin hospitality is a thing. in the old testament, there are stories too as nomadic communities set up their tents around water. because in a desert, if you are lost and you dont have the generosity of strangers, you will die.
in india/hinduism, the day starts with feeding the crows, dogs, cows, birds..and then the poor and hungry. even the ghosts and spirits of ancestors are fed. god is fed and because stone doesnt eat, the rest of us partake communally.
poverty has become invisible in today's world. especially the modern world. and you dont think that someone is hungry if they are wearing fancy shoes and has an iPhone. that makes you clench your palms tighter. so in america, they will send money to africa while your neighbour is probably starving.
also: food is so plentiful these days..and cheap. people go hungry because they dont know how to cook. at least in the western world. the other day, someone told me that children are in poverty and starving because all they had was vegetables and beans. i was dumbstruck. thats a feast to this vegetarian indian. you have milk, vegetables, rice and beans..thats a veritable feast!
so i offer food to those who are experiencing poverty of culinary knowledge too. they are hungry because they were never taught the most important survival skill of all..cooking.
Don't know why you are getting downvoted, but most of what you have said is reasonable.
I also share the sentiment of making things better around you, not someplace far away (although that's good too, I think improving your surroundings takes precedence).
While not being an expert my understanding is that having a phone almost is a requirement for the homeless to keep in contact with what little resources you have left.
Even if that is only other homeless who can tell you when you are about to be harassed.
But many see a glass fronted smartphone of any kind and think they are just "putting on an act"...
Feeding people in Italy is important. I was never for want of money there, so I can't speak to that aspect of it, but I recall arriving in places that were close to closing, or otherwise not really set up to feed you a normal meal. I never went away hungry though, even if it was a sandwich and some apologies.
In Austria, on the other hand... we arrived at one place about 15 minutes before closing time, and the guy said sorry and kicked us out into an approaching rainstorm. No food, no bottle of beer, no nothing. Had several other similar experiences there.
Yeah, the Austrian guy probably wasn't the owner of the establishment and didn't want the overtime work with keeping the place opened for longer than his contract?
BTW, was that in Vienna? They're so famous for their rudeness it's a running meme now.
It was a small place on the "bench" southwest of Innsbruck, so I don't think that was the situation. He was more just like "we close at 6 sorry". In Italy, the guy most likely would have been "look, we're about to close, so I can't seat you, and our kitchen's shut down, but..." and he probably would have figured out a way to send us on our way with something.
I've seen the same when visiting Brazil. It's more common to give the homeless food than money. Pai would go out to give someone food and a "fica com Deus" pretty regularly.
Not sure if London is such a great example, lot's of organized groups just begging for money as income in those "developed" urban city centers.
The same also exist in Germany and can lead to quite weird situations.
One time a bigger man, with a cane and a somewhat shabby suit, approached me asking for money so he could buy food for his children.
I offered him to buy food, went with him to a nearby bakery, let them pack up a whole bag of breads and other stuff, ask him how many children he has got as I wanted to buy them pastries.
He didn't reply at all, he just kept insisting he needs money, now for... milk.
I gave him a bag worth 20€ of bakery stuff and just went my way, as he kept insisting he needs money on-top of that.
On the opposite end of that: I'm on the subway platform and see a obviously homeless man going trough the trashcans for bottles with deposit on them, pulling a small cart behind him with all his belongings.
I had a bag with 2 chocolate donuts on me, after eating most of them, I gave him those two donuts and he lightened up like the sun and was super thankful, over donuts worth 2€..
Why is this downvoted? I've only been to London once, but I can certainly speak to identical behavior from panhandlers at many intersections in central NC, USA. They'll hold signs pleading all sorts of sad stories, typically asking for finances for food. Sometimes faking limps or missing appendices (one time I could clearly notice the guys leg tucked up inside his jeans...)
If you offer to buy them a big meal at the restaurant down the street, they'll cuss you out and harass you. Then promptly heckle the car behind you for cash.
They want cold cash for drugs, nothing more or less. Many of these folks run it like a job, panhandling for 4-8 hours a day, then hopping in their car and returning to their shared living situation to shoot/snort/smoke up. It's a racket than can easily generate more income than an honest hourly job around here.
It's really quite sad, because amongst them are some folks who seriously need help, and would be nothing less than extremely thankful for any food or clothing provided to them. Sadly, the druggie gremlins are in the majority, so I don't give anything to anyone. Lock the doors and look straight ahead. I keep my hand near my firearm too, because I've had them vigorously pull my car doors before.
Why are humans special? As a species, we kill other living beings for our sustenance. I don’t think empathy is a human universal.
Or is it?
Almost two decades ago, when AI was still conversational fun rather than raging startups on steroids harvesting data, discussions in forums I used to frequent always used to circle around empathy, humans and AI.
Some questions to ask:
1. Would artificial intelligence have empathy?
2. Why did we evolve to cultivate empathy?
3. If AI developed empathy, would they have to possess emotions as well?
4. If AI develops empathy and emotion, how far away from sentience are these artificial beings we have created?
5. And now we will have to look at the ethics of ‘owning’ AI. A being..artificial or otherwise..that is capable of showing empathy and has emotions, is it akin to enslaving them?
And just like that, we can catapult ourselves into P.K.Dick’s world.
There is homeless and homeless. In my country (France) some are in the street as a lifestyle choice, or are only pretending being in need to leech on charity. Those people generally refuse food and take offense if you offer some. On the other hand, there are people who are genuinly suffering, hungry who will gladly take food when offered. The trick is too distinguish between the two (the latter are in fact, quite rare, I'd rate really struggling beggars are less than 10%). Looking them in the eyes is the way to spot them, people who will accept food have a different gaze and their suffering is readable on their face.
Partly this. When I lived in St. Louis I lived right next to a homeless shelter. I'd hang out with some while waiting for steet food to be cooked (the dudes sleeping on the step to my condo). I often would offer them food. They usually turned me down. I asked one and the reason was that if they had food that gave them the runs they were in deep trouble. So most of them preferred very regular meals even if they were crappy cafeteria like food from the shelter as that food was not going to mess with their digestive.
In India, my grandparents used to set up a make shift stall every Friday(or a day chosen monthly to honor ancestors) and take cooked food to distribute to anyone who is hungry.
Everyone did this..so every community will always have free food available everyday at temples or outside places of worship.
It doesn’t matter if you are a beggar or a devotee who has come to the temple to offer prayers. It is for anyone who is hungry. To feed the hungry shouldn’t be on the basis of whether they ‘deserve it or not’.
However, the principle was always that ‘I am here with food. Please take what you want.’ The offer is an out stretched hand but the one who wants it must ask. It is not the duty of the giver to offer unsolicited food or drink or help.
I think charity and generosity is different from cultivating and preserving a Saviour Complex.
Meanwhile..here in America, children can’t open a lemonade stand without a permit. Otoh, everyone pays hefty taxes as a form of mandatory charity. So there’s that..
> To feed the hungry shouldn’t be on the basis of whether they ‘deserve it or not’.
But that wasn't my point, it's not about "who's deserving of what". It's about dying of thirst in the desert and turning down somebody offering you water because you insist on getting Gatorade instead.
At that point it's not about "deserving" anymore but it's very much entitlement. It also means whoever is dying of thirst there either doesn't have their priorities right or they ain't actually dying of thirst if they can still be so picky to demand Gatorade over water.
Or to apply it to your example of food being handed out at temples: Imagine if somebody turned down all that food on offer, while insisting that they get exactly the dish they want like in an à la carte restaurant.
Don't you think that would come across as tone-deaf and entitled?
I agree. That’s why my rule is to give only when asked and only if it’s within my ability..otherwise it’s just a savior complex.
And people turn down food all the time. It means they can go without food for another day! Good for them! There are others who need what is on offer. I try to focus on my ability rather than their need. It’s 7.5+ billion people..Can’t help everyone!
Or maybe just reaching out a helping hand to fellow human being that's apparently in need? If that leads to everybody involved being even slightly better off, why should that be considered some kind of negative complex?
On that front, human pride and societal norms can be very weird beasts: Way too many people who would really need the help of somebody else, often are either too proud or too scared to actually ask for that helping hand. Too hard-coded is the fear of appearing vulnerable/embarrassed, particularly in-front of strangers.
At least that's something I've noticed in Western societies, where begging (which is also a form of asking) is often considered some kind of scam and with demands to never support it by actually giving anything.
Sure. Everyone should do that which feels right to them. There is no universal rule.
I was just sharing why my lived experience makes me less susceptible to knee jerk automatic charity that relies on reading outward signaling. Everyone is different.
It easier to make sense of these kinds of things if you try to understand them in the moment. That is, go talk to the specific people you see behaving in this way and see why they do what they do. I've got a friend who would give out free meals to poor people on the street. I won't tell you what race he is, because I think it kind of misses the point to fixate on the circumstances of one's birth. He said he had some experience with poverty and being hungry so he took it pretty seriously when he saw it in our community. That may or may not be what is going on with that specific person you observed feeding that other poor person. We don't know. You have to ask.
As far as I can tell, most cultures in the world have a tradition of feeding guests and whomever needs a meal. Japan, Greece, Ethiopia, Italy, Britain, Hawaii, etc. I think this is because in many parts of the world, it used to be common for people to go hungry at some point.
If you've gone hungry before, you remember how painful it is. But most of us don't, because we literally have so much food we throw it away. But that's definitely not everyone's reality.
>As a teenager in Italy drafted into Mussolini’s army, he escaped and joined the resistance forces as an underground freedom fighter, planting explosives on roads and railroads to thwart fascism’s spread across Europe.
If the war had gone a bit different, this man might have gone down in history as a little-known terrorist. Makes me think how lucky I am to live in such peace. Not everyone in the world, or even my community, gets to experience that.
There used to be (I'm going back over twenty years) a roadside honor market off of NC 28 in the NC mountains. It was just a simple wood shack with honey, jams, chowchow, etc. You could take what you wanted and there was a slot to deposit your money.
I was in Miami for Hurricane Andrew. A gas station near me, the attendant had to leave. They left the pumps on and a sign to leave cash. There was an article later in the Miami Herald that folks ended up leaving more than the amount of gas sold (this is from memory, I may not have the details correct).
People are mostly trustworthy. If not, society would collapse. Yes, there are bad people. The trick is to not become cynical and more importantly, not to build a society that loses all compassion. Otherwise the bad people win.
I live right around the corner from Art’s home and love stopping by to pickup a frozen lasagna or Pesto sauce. Although I only got to meet him a couple times, he always felt like a neighbor and grandfather figure. He served pasta at many of my high school fundraisers. RIP to a great man. It was really nice to see this tribute make its way over here on HN. Happy Thanksgiving to all.
Grew up in Sonoma County, love the pasta king. Whenever we go to the Sonoma County fair it’s a tradition to visit his permanent food stall, and get a massive plate of spaghetti to share.
Also lost count of the number of charity dinners/lunches I went to catered by the Pasta King, more often than not Art himself was there.
i second volpi. i drive through petaluma often because it's between my farm and orchard. so petaluma is often the break i need in the 2 hour drive. petaluma can be a tad twee these days..but still good food. you can tell ingredients are super fresh and local.
There are plenty of generous people out there. Unfortunately we spend most of our time idolizing greedy and selfish people. Kindness and generosity does not have high ratings.
I don’t know if this counts, but there is a place in Redmond, Washington that sells honey using roughly the same approach. They leave jars of honey worth up to $100 each on the shelf outside their barn wall with a locked cashbox and you just pay on the honor system.
a lot of small family farms have honor system. i used to let people come in for u-pick strawberries and fruit. also honey and during tomato season. until my insurance said that i cant do that and i will have to pay extra on the premium. even if i kept it hush hush, the homeless/drug addicts started moving in and trashing the place. it became a genuine liability risk. so i had to fence as much as i could and put up signs.
didnt make a difference to the thieves. i have had a tractor, a trailer and multiple metal trellis systems and greenhouse building materials stolen anyways. but my honor system farm stand doesnt exist anymore. to even put up a farm stand, i have to get a special permit. the regulations are killing small farms.
i live in central washington, lots of fruit growers have unattended cash only fruit stands along the roads. its good for everyone; fresh as possible fruit for me, easy money for farmer.
they usually have cameras and the community usually comes together to catch anyone screwing around.
Something this wonderful story doesn't touch on (and rightfully So, it doesn't fit the tone) is when people break his trust.
I think it's relatively easy to be trusting. I think it's harder to remain trusting when it gets broken on occasion. That's the secret I want to learn about.
I never paid for Pasta King pasta like that, but when I lived down the road from him my roommate slaughtered chickens and sold them with an identical honor system. People just left a @$20 bill on the kitchen table and took their chicken.
I was at a small Mexican restaurant, waiting to order some takeout. Outside, on the pavement, there were a few diners enjoying their meals, including a Hispanic person who looked like he worked construction or some similar trade. A vagrant was passing by, and he slowed down, ever so slightly, at the sight and smell of the delicious foods inside. The diner quickly called out to the vagrant and said he should order something for himself; it would be paid for.
It was a spontaneous act of charity from someone who was not too well off himself. It made quite an impression on me.