The reasoning is quite sound, yes, but it doesn't consider the long term implications. No one outside of the USA is using iMessage and they are one regulation away from losing it in the USA too. Also, outside of the USA if they piss off Mark Zuckerberg enough they can lose the rest of the world because who would want a phone that doesn't have WhatsApp?
It also demonstrates the harm with these lock-in strategies very well. They are concerned that their product wouldn't be compelling enough for people to buy it.
Wouldn't be better if they owned the messaging platform and provide the full experience for iOS due to the fact that they control the device? Owning the platform would have given them also the ability to get revenue from non-Apple users through things like payments and other services that can be integrated into the app.
In its current situation, it might be the case that Apple has won the battle but might end up losing the war.
> outside of the USA if they piss off Mark Zuckerberg enough they can lose the rest of the world because who would want a phone that doesn't have WhatsApp?
We use WhatsApp by default because of the network effects. FB have no power over Apple here because removing it from iPhones would kill the only reason people use it. The switch to (most likely) Telegram would happen overnight.
Okay, what if FB makes WhatsApp slow, buggy and lacking features instead? Are the Android users be willing to switch to other messenger platforms for the comfort of the iPhone users or are the iPhone users consider the messaging quality just as if they consider camera quality when purchasing a new phone?
I agree that the messaging platforms are not all powerful but they do wield significant power. iPhone is famously good for social media because Instagram and Snapchat camera integration sucked and that was something people consider when buying a new phone.
So there must be a point where switching to a different phone to improve communications is less painful than making all your social circle switch platform for you.
I personally doubt it. Most of the markets where Whatsapp is THE messaging app is also where iPhone has low penetration.
At least taking the example of India, if Whatsapp were to stop supporting iOS, then people would still continue to use Whatsapp in their Android phones.
> Also, outside of the USA if they piss off Mark Zuckerberg enough they can lose the rest of the world because who would want a phone that doesn't have WhatsApp?
That is a fantastic point, had never though along those lines. It’d be very interesting to explore if people in, say India, where everyone uses WhatsApp - in that scenario will people drop iPhone, a status symbol, or WhatsApp, a somewhat necessary tool. I don’t think no one knows today and no one wants to find out, risks are too high.
Moreover, in that case it is possible that governments might step in.
If Facebook messes up WhatsApp people will move to Snapchat instead, the groups, the network and the momentum already exist. People really aren’t going to leave iOS for WhatsApp.
That would never happen though because Facebook has enough problems if its own without picking a very risky fight with Apple.
You don't realize how pervasive WhatsApp is in India and how much of a premium product iPhone is there.
You may be right, but I doubt it is going to be that simple.
I have no idea what all Snapchat offers (never used/installed it). But, FWIW, I think Signal or Telegram have better odds of succeeding in India than Snapchat, but who knows.
That would be full circle. I remember back then when Jabber was popular, most competitors offered gateways (similar to the IRC-Slack gateway Slack closed recently) so that people who used the popular open protocol would help spreading their closed variant. After a few years they would shut it down. But people never learn and I think the history would soon repeat itself.
People are loyal to theır friends, not the apps. If the people you want to talk to are not all on iMessage they you don't use iMessage.
If in EU you manage not to use something else than iMessage the you are in a bubble because most people in EU use Android. You somehow managed to have an iPhone bubble but your situation is not the rule but the exception.
> Also, outside of the USA if they piss off Mark Zuckerberg enough they can lose the rest of the world because who would want a phone that doesn't have WhatsApp?
In the US, Facebook admitted that they saw billions in revenue shortfalls because of Apple’s new prompt that makes user tracking opt in.
Besides, Facebook has already lost 70% of its value. Right now, Facebook is worth 240 billion. Apple is worth 2.2 trillion. Facebook is not exactly operating from a position of strength to throw away its most affluent customers.
Why should I continue reading rest when you already made insane claim based on nothing. Or have I suddenly been teleported to USA? I primarily use iMessage when I'm sending messages with my phone. I have only one contact that uses Whatsapp.
No one is using iMessage outside of the USA is like no one is using microsoft Zune. It’s not literally no one but due to the network effect people use Whatsapp or whatever is popular in their country(some places use facebook messenger, Line, Viber, Skype, WeChat etc and you are expected to have it. Why switch apps all the time when you do the exactly same thing everywhere? Except for switching away from iMessage of course because %70 of the people won’t have it even if they want to).
> Why should I continue reading rest when you already made insane claim based on nothing.
You do see the fault with your logic, correct? you state it is an "insane claim" yet offer zero proof... So effectively "based on nothing"?
Here, take a read:
"
WhatsApp announced in 2020 on its blog that the messaging app is actively used by over two billion people worldwide. This puts the green messaging app far ahead of all other messaging apps, such as Facebook Messenger, WeChat, Viber, Apple Business Chat, or Telegram in terms of user numbers.
"
Your personal anecdote that you have a "only one contact" is not relevant, what is relevant is statistics.
But he’s right. There’s no meaningful usage of it outside of America. WhatsApp is king everywhere else.
Anecdotally more people I know use Signal than iMessage, including my non tech savvy sisters and friends. iMessage is too weird and Android too prevalent for anyone to consider using it where I am from (the U.K.)
Anecdata:
Ireland is a wealthy country and plenty of people have iPhones, but WhatsApp is pervasive. Especially for clubs, parent groups, family chats etc... My techie friends mostly use Signal but fallback to WhatsApp. If you contact a stranger to buy a second hand item for example, 99% chance you can WhatsApp them once you have the number. I don't anyone who uses iMessage primarily...
Sweden: all but two of my friend group have iPhones.
Those two use Signal/Telegram.
Not denying that there's a fair whatsapp penetration, but iPhones are quite popular and I have many iMessage groups that do not overlap in the membership.
Neither Europe or Asia use iMessage, they use Whatsapp. Don't know which part of the world youve been to, but more than 70% of the possible iPhone population doesn't use iMessage.
The rest of the world doesn't have the SMS problem that the US has.
As a non American, what problem does the US have with SMS?
I can confirm essentially no one in western Europe uses iMessage. I've seen people use FaceTime to call friends, but I've yet to even see someone open the iMessage app in person.
Yep. Also the iMessage&SMS being in the same place makes the app very prone to spam. I have nothing more than 2FA codes and marketing spam in my iMessage app because the iMessage app is actually integrated with SMS and is called Messages.
I use facetime quite a lot though, because it works better than everything else.
At least in Germany quite a few people still pay for each SMS, so having both in the same convo is actively undesired since at least with e.g. Whatsapp there will be no surprise costs.
I guess the "problem" is that American iPhone users will either exclude non-iPhone users altogether or default to SMS rather than switching to a cross-platform messaging app, despite the deficiencies of SMS in modern communication, e.g. poor support for group chats and sending images or videos.
"EU lawmakers agreed that the largest messaging services (such as Whatsapp, Facebook Messenger or iMessage) will have to open up and interoperate with smaller messaging platforms"
> Neither Europe or Asia use iMessage, they use WhatsApp.
That's really a simplistic way of thinking. It is marked specific sure, but China have WeChat as the dominate messaging app. Denmark has some level of WhatsApp penetration for sure, but it's lower than iMessage (23% vs 33%), in some circles it is really noticeable if you switch to Android. iMessages is also a bit weird, because a large number of people do not care that it's technically iMessage, it just the messaging app on the phone, meaning it's SMS (even if it's technically not). I believe Sweden is rather similar. You also have to consider how many have multiple messaging apps installed. My guess is that a large number of the WhatsApp users are still available on iMessage.
I don't think it makes sense to entire continent or even countries as being WhatsApp or iMessage. We have to view it in much smaller circles. Like businesses, income classes or circles of friends and family.
Not sure where you’re talking about in Asia. Vietnam uses Zalo, China has Wechat, Japan has Line, Korea has Kakaotalk, Thailand I think is Line as well. I think the average tech-aware person in at least East Asia doesn’t know what WhatsApp even is.
There is no 'Asia'. Every country is unique. Hong Kong mostly uses Whatsapp (though some Telegram and Wechat as well), Singapore uses Whatsapp a lot, Turkey uses Whatsapp, Indonesia too...
I use an iPhone. Many of my mates, colleagues and business partners use iPhones. These folks are located in Europe, Asia and Latin America.
We all use Whatsapp to discuss everything, from business to personal stuff to memes. I even use Whatsapp calling with some of my friends and colleagues in the USA. My friends circle has a monthly ritual of chatting through Whatsapp group call. I'm also a part of 3 Whatsapp groups to discuss exclusively football, as well as 5 Whatsapp groups for business networking (white shoe finance).
If Zuck were to get pissed and take down Whatsapp from the Apple Store, I know for a fact that a number of my colleagues would immediately buy an Android phone right off the bat, instead of getting Signal or Telegram. I might personally go the Signal option, but without the network effects, I would be driven straight back to Android. That would mean Apple directly losing an entire set of premium customers in markets outside USA and China.
Fun fact:- OPEC dealings are conducted over Whatsapp.
At this point, Whatsapp is pretty much critical infrastructure in many countries. And yet Zuck has been so stupid in not leveraging its full potential and instead doing Metaverse and Reels shit.
I think this was true but is changing. I've deleted WhatsApp and switched to Signal a few years ago, and now I use iMessage with all my friends who don't have Signal (maybe 4-5 people that I text with regularly). Interestingly enough, I don't have any close friends who don't have Signal and don't have an iPhone...
Yeah, that comment was mental. I'm in Australia and over 55% of our mobile phone users are on Apple devices. iMessage is everywhere. Guy knows nothing.
Right. The world is the USA and the rest of it is UK&Australia. If that wasn't the case, why would the aliens always contact the US president and speak English? iMessage is definitely the dominant messaging platform of the humanity.
/s
The cluelessness of the Anglosphere about the rest of the World is very entertaining and sad at the same time.
I don't know why people don't look at India more. And China too, but in this case we know the Chinese use WeChat. India has about 3 times more people than the US, UK and Australia combined. China and India make up more than a third of all people on Earth, but rarely ever mentioned.
Indians use Whatsapp, and so does the fourth biggest country in the world, Indonesia.
It is always shocking when people make such baseless claims like "Everyone users iMessage" when a very simple google search would show them this is not the case.
It is a very big world out there and so few realize this.
Australian here and I don't know anyone who uses iMessage (knowingly at least - my Mum uses an iPhone and presumably does occasionally use the default messaging app for contacting other iPhone users).
The few people I don't use WA with I use FB messenger or SMS.
> ...and they are one regulation away from losing it...
More than likely, but the government is never going to legislate that companies use a technically excellent messaging product. Governments have the strongest incentives to cripple messaging:
1) Government pressure degrades private & secure messaging, because privacy can be used for criminal activity and tax evasion.
2) The US government has the worlds most sophisticated spy network and is constantly looking for ways to get involved in people's communications.
3) The US government has generally identified "misinformation" to be anything the current administration doesn't like. Presently only the right wing is aware of this fact, but I know the left wing can understand the point because they had figured this out under Trump.
Apple's relative market share and strategy is at best a secondary factor, the US government will regulate first and foremost get involved in messaging to cripple the security of the protocols being used.
Btw I never understood the reason for imessage being so popular in the US
I remember in France when it was introduced, most phone plans had free SMS, but data was paid (and expensive), so people around me would disable it on their iphones
> because who would want a phone that doesn't have WhatsApp?
Me!
I hate whatsapp ui. And not having desktop app. Tend to use Telegram, and Viber as last resort, to talk with elderly family and with businesses(when ordering something online).
Why is WhatsApp special? iMessages is used a lot outside US.
Why is there a “messenger war”? Like what’s the end game? Why do you want people using your free messages product? Data? But e2e encryption and privacy are primary features… I don’t get it
> Why is there a “messenger war”? Like what’s the end game? Why do you want people using your free messages product? Data? But e2e encryption and privacy are primary features… I don’t get it
Messenger apps have powerful network effects. Imagine all your friends are on iPhone and use iMessage, if you're the only android user in that circle you're getting a degraded experience so there's a strong incentive to move to iphone which means more sales for apple.
So that makes sense for Apple. But it doesn't make sense for literally every other messenger app. Why do they bother existing?
(i.e 1 billion people use Messenger X, is the game plan that some one else with an actual business model wants those billion users so they buy it... so Messenger apps are a marketing channel?)
At first messaging was a draw to have people use the portal (AOL, ICQ, MSN). Later, they tried to sell the apps as another banner slot.
The more recent bout has their own services in messaging itself; bots to provide enterprise-specific functions to Slack, payment and marketplace tie-ins to Messenger.
It also demonstrates the harm with these lock-in strategies very well. They are concerned that their product wouldn't be compelling enough for people to buy it.
Wouldn't be better if they owned the messaging platform and provide the full experience for iOS due to the fact that they control the device? Owning the platform would have given them also the ability to get revenue from non-Apple users through things like payments and other services that can be integrated into the app.
In its current situation, it might be the case that Apple has won the battle but might end up losing the war.