Has the author of this article ever used a custom ROM? There are so many free alternatives for these apps out there. If I remember correctly, LineageOS ships with their own version of Dialer/Messages anyway. I usually replace them with the versions of SimpleMobileTools, which work just fine.
The main difficulty for custom ROMs are not these standard apps. The real issues are bootloaders which cannot be unlocked, undocumented binary&buggy firmware blobs, SafetyNet, Google Play Services, and so on. Just look how Google effectively broke the AuroraStore App recently. It's getting more and more difficult to use Android without a Google Account.
> Just look how Google effectively broke the AuroraStore App recently.
For anyone who has been hit by this, you can workaround the api issue by long pressing on a playstore http link and clicking open in app (aurora icon).
So you can't search using the app anymore, but if you have the link to what you want you can still install without playstore or a google account.
It's infuriating how hard Google makes it to manually update apps. We really need to dig down that awful play store. Aurora is just there, at the start. Really hope the community finds a way to keep aurora working
Not a very clean solution but if someone (power user) wants to avoid the playstore entirely, they can perhaps do so by simply force-disabling the app (using tools like adb), and then use something like apkmirror[1] or apkpure[2] or aptoide to install the APKs for the apps directly and bypass the store entirely?
The problem with installing APKs directly is that you probably never update these apps again, as you'd have to manually check if you still have the current version and then download the new APK and install it again. At least that's what happened with the apps I installed that way.
It is a win for me not to auto-update, as Termux is very precious (to me) and I would hate to see it lose more functionality or completely stop working.
But it's not just auto-update. I can disable auto-update in the Google Play Store, but at least I easily see if updates are available and can still selectively update apps with the press of one button.
For me, the better solution would be F-Droid. Easy update process but the apps are mostly open-source etc.
For anyone who is unable to get the "Open in App" to open in Aurora (and not F-droid), check that you've actually clicked on the App webpage and that you're not just in the search page (play.google.com/search?app=blah, for example is bad)
Actually, it seems they have mostly fixed this, but I had to clean the app data to make it work again. Sometimes you get "Oops, you are rate limited", but that was just temporary.
After spelunking into the dialer source code a bit, it seems the important stuff related to receiving and initiating calls are already handled by android's TelecomManager and the dialer only provides interface for users to interact with TelecomManager.
I haven't really dig into Messages source code these days, but a few years ago I was making an app that can send MMS messages and it was insane how much heavy lifting a messaging apps have to do in order to send MMS reliably on any carrier. Losing the default Message app might be a big blow considering so many 3rd party message app still can't do MMS right (at least the last time I checked). For example, people are still posting MMS issues on the github repo for SimpleMobileTools app you mentioned.
> The real issues are bootloaders which cannot be unlocked
I haven't run in to that lately, but an issue I find much more annoying is the lack of support around re-locking with a custom root of trust. I think a few others support it, but I've only seen mention of it on the Pixel phones (and I won't buy Google hardware after they wouldn't replace my Pixel 3 that was bricked by their EDL hardware issue).
You are right, this is another issue. With an unlocked bootloader, you'll not be able to fully pass SafetyNet, for instance. I've also seen some forum posts that this should be possible for Motorola Moto G phones, but there were some warnings that if you do that, you might not be able to unlock your phone ever again, so I've never tried...
You can bypass safetynet even with an unlocked bootloader. I'm using Lineage 20 with microg and with a bit of work with magisk modules you can get it to work. I just feel like this is again another "security feature" to make it harder for people who don't want google in their phones.
To my knowledge, there are different levels of passing SafetyNet. I also use Magisk to hide root and use the safetynet-fix-module, but it still detects the unlocked bootloader. However, for instance my banking apps run fine as long as they don't detect root, but I hear stuff like Netflix will not work (which I don't care for).
> but I hear stuff like Netflix will not work (which I don't care for)
This is Widevine DRM, most devices with the Magisk workarounds will get at least L3, which gives you standard definition netflix. Need L1 for HD and only a few phones unlock bootloader reliably and keep it (my Oneplus 8T does, 9 pro does not)
"You can see this apps, and you can develop for them. But you can't use them on your own device ..."
GPL explicitly demands that a method is provided to replace the binaries on devices that the software runs on. Which is one of the reasons the tech giants are so opposed to it. The other reason is cloud.
>LineageOS ships with their own version of Dialer/Messages anyway.
They use slightly modified AOSP versions. This isn't the first time a major AOSP app was dropped, the biggest was the built-in email client like 4 major Android releases ago. Also the calendar app was replaced by Etar a few releases ago (can't remember if AOSP's calendar was deprecated or just a piece of shit).
99.9% of consumers probably have never heard about custom ROMs, and I'd reckon 99.9% of consumers who do hear about custom ROMs have boring old fashioned objections like "will it break my warranty" and "if it ain't broke don't fix it" and "I wonder what's on Netflix tonight/I think I shall be washing my hair".
For the few people who distrust Google enough to install LineageOS or some such, they probably distrust Google enough to not care too much about not using Google. Who is in this sweetspot where they want (i.e. install and use, not merely aspire to installing and using) a custom ROM but having no access to proprietary Google APIs is a bridge too far?
"What is Android ? Well you see, there are various operating systems out there. An operating system is the software that allows you to use your hardware. So for example you may be familiar with Windows, macOS or Linux..."
I have been using GrapheneOS for a couple of years and I feel frustration about this announcement. At the same time, sounds like not much of a biggie, but I'd prefer the burden of updating the apps not to be on the GrapheneOS contributors.
On the other hand, I can see Google's arguments and "plausible deniability" that this is not Embrace, Extend, Extinguish: really nobody expects them to "Don't be Evil" anymore, security vulnerabilities in these apps are probably the last thing in their priorities, and the target audience for these apps is really small.
> they probably distrust Google enough to not care too much about not using Google
I think you probably greatly overestimate how much normal people worry about things like that.
Look out your window and count how many tinfoil hats you see people with. If there's more than maybe one or two, you live in a fairly atypical part of the world and it might be time to move house.
It doesn't take a 100 million people to build a new phone ecosystem. Only a few thousand, if even that. If there is no alternative, it will get built and be usable. I avoid other open phone projects because I don't have the time and AOSP works fine, but if Google breaks it beyond usability, you better believe I'll be jumping onto one of the fully open projects even if it has major limitations.
If Google "breaks" AOSP, I am pretty sure that the next big thing will be a fork of AOSP. But that would probably be bad for Google (they probably wouldn't want Samsung + Huawei + others to start maintaining a fork of AOSP, I think).
As far as I understand the distributor licensing for Googles apps and services outright prohibits manufacturers from selling any unapproved or Google free Android devices in countries where that isn't considered anti competitive.
It's a pretty weird subject: the document that has been mentioned in the press about that requirement doesn't exactly say that Google app are required, it says that when you do an "Android" it must always comply to Android APIs. Which can be done without Google apps. BTW that agreement still exists even where it was deemed anti-competitive, but in domains where Google isn't a monopoly (like cars).
That being said, it's Google. Even you didn't sign anything that says you're not allowed to do Google-less Android, when you launch a non-Google device, Googly devices may just "mysteriously" fall into "oops sorry we are understaffed, we don't have time to handle your requests".
I don't know where you can find that "only a few thousand" people or the funding. I don't know if one can even count the number of failed attempts at a mobile operating system.
It's part of the recurring pattern of blindness towards the actual level of caring among average service users. Reddit is another example of this pattern. Mind you I say this as the minority who cares.
Less "blindness" and more "active hostility" in my opinion. Unpopular updates? Bad licensing? Privacy problems? Just double and triple down. There's no realistic alternative, so why listen to those pesky users?
I absolutely loathe today's smartphone landscape. You can have a semi-locked-down phone from a company that wants you to put all your data in the clown, or you can have a fully-locked-down phone from a company that wants you to put all your data in the clown. Worse, the only alternative that had a chance just had to be Microsoft. Watching the horror show of post-7 Windows, I think we dodged a bullet with Windows Phone going nowhere.
The masses aren't going to flock to any potential alternative unless it offers something they find truly compelling.
Hmm I think it's getting pretty easy today to get a de-Googled Android phone that "just works". You can buy Murena phones that come with /e/OS pre-installed (I did that). Probably the same with GrapheneOS/CalyxOS/etc.
Users are lazy and don't want to take such a risk, but they do have a choice.
I literally bought a Fairphone 3+ that came with /e/ OS pre-installed. It gets updates like a normal Android, I never had to care about the fact that it is not a normal Android (i.e. I never had to run a weird installer or anything at all).
People don't care about Android. They care about their apps. Some are fun, some are necessary. In my country, cash has been almost replaced by an app (just one), and it's getting harder to exist here without it (as I try to). That's just one example. I've heard of other places where compulsory national ID systems only exist as apps. And so on.
Unless those apps becomes available outside official app stores, switching is going to be de facto impossible, and people will take whatever shit Google and Apple roll out.
To be fair, other OSes can use the Google Play store, at least. Way back, Blackberry was somehow able to run Play Store apps, and as I understand it, many of the alternative Android roms can also use the Play Store if you wish. I'm not sure how well apps from that actually work on these phones, but most of these custom roms are AOSP anyway, so in theory it should be fine.
Apple is completely different of course: you're either in or you're out.
It would be nice if the alternative Android roms were better supported.
But you're completely correct; some apps really are almost necessary for daily life these days, depending on where you are.
A compulsory national ID system already means they are living in a police state, so they have worse issues to worry about than this.
Also, maybe at some point the UE countries will start to enforce the CJUE directive that banned US companies (and especially GAFAMs) in 2015 (after the war is over ?), this would open quite a space for competition !
I never understood this. Do you have a driver's license? Do you have a job? Do you but stuff? Have a bank account? a credit card? health insurance? Do you use the internet? Do you pay taxes?
You are already in a lot of national databases, you're easily trackable already. You already are subject to all of your alleged downsides without the benefits of having a single document.
Do you really believe that an American has more freedom than, let's say, a Switzerland citizen? Really????
> A compulsory national ID system already means they are living in a police state
Such a bizarre take.
Many countries have national ID systems that are compulsory (or effectively compulsory) and do not fall under any reasonable definition of a "police state"
And go where? Apple? How exactly is that any better in this regard? It's even more of a walled garden. If you mean custom ROMs, they have huge issues of their own making them a non-starter for 99.99% of the population.
Well, it's a duopoly. Which, since it is not literally a monopoly, often gets a pass.
Have a country with a single party you can vote for? This country will be called a dictatorship, dystopian shithole, undemocratic, whatever... Have a country with two parties which are marginally different you can vote for? Now it's just a normal democracy.
For all practical purposes, customers don't care about that. And the minority who cares is going to do what? move to an even more restrictive walled-garden?
Most custom ROMs don't seem to use the AOSP dialer anyway. I've mostly seen forks with some nice features Google's dialer still lacks (call recording, for one).
AOSP hasn't been a useful Android distribution for years. Luckily, you can make it useful through third party apps like the Simple apps: https://www.simplemobiletools.com/
Yeah, my first thought after reading the article was something like, "so I guess everyone will have to start grabbing phone/SMS apps out of F-Droid now". Annoying, but not that big of a deal, and I suspect the replacements will be better anyways. Worst case, the community and/or individual ROMs just fork the old AOSP versions, which has happened before as Google abandons things.
Most ROMs I see just fork LineageOS, which has a dialer of its own built in already.
Theoretically you can run an AOSP GSI on your phone and yes then you do need to find apps on F-Droid, but I don't think anyone but ROM developers do that.
I use custom fork of AOSP Messaging (on local LineageOS/microG build) with some minor UI tweaks and bugfixes. I have tried all other messaging apps on F-Droid, but every single one of them was broken in some way (mostly regarding MMS support or notifications while in deep sleep) or was missing a key feature (like delivery notifications).
The problem with MMS is that there is no built in system-level support for the protocol on Android, and due to legacy of 3G network/WAP, the protocol is quite odd when compared to modern alternatives.
I'm using Google Voice for my dialer... really hope they don't break this outright though. Have thought it would be nice to replace GV with a FLOSS option I can self-host, but every time I've looked into it, it feels like such a convoluted mess.
I always thought that sure, they're deprecating old apps for the closed source Google version, which sucks, but at least AOSP still comes with barebones versions.
But now AOSP, a mobile phone operating system, will come without calling and texting ability? How can Google even do that? These apps, old as they may be, can also still serve as useful reference points for making your own OEM-branded app.
They're just saying they've stopped maintaining it, I'm pretty sure that puts these apps in the same situation as the Android 2 style music player that's still part of AOSP.
Android APIs are stable and an app will keep working until Google decides to bump the min SDK version in Android itself.
The APIs a Google app uses are the same as any other app.
Unless the app is privileged ( = can use system APIs ) there's no difference in capabilities.
Yes. That is the problem I am referring to. They can bump the api version, removing the non-privileged APIs the AOSP stuff used, and move the implementation of the new privileged API into a proprietary blob.
This is how location services work. Location has an obvious local-only fallback, but it is broken in practice. I imagine they can break phone calls/sms/rcs equally badly using the same technique.
All oems or rom makers are able to make whatever apps they want system apps. So even if this is being done, Google dialer isn't getting access to something others cannot.
This is the kind of shit I thought could theoretically happen and it was one of the reason I got rid of Android a few years ago and got a PinePhone when my smartphone died. I've been counting on the Linux mobile ecosystem to develop so we have an good alternative to Android and iOS.
It's not there yet. I need my phone to be reliable and IMHO, it would need to reliably let me place an emergency call if I ever needed it. It's not yet the case. For now, I'm using my first phone, which is not a smartphone, and the PinePhone serves the smartphone-specific needs I have on the go like look something up on the internet or display a map. Which is already something.
The Linux mobile ecosystem has greatly improved though, I still have hope that it'll be usable in a few years.
There are no real alternatives. I'm installing apps on a factory reset Samsung A40 from 2019. The last ones of all the process are banking apps, github (only because they decided I need 2FA (*)) and a digital identity one for my country, basically another 2FA. I really don't have an alternative for them. In theory I could leave an Android phone in a drawer at home for those apps, use WhatsApp web on the Pine, maybe Telegram desktop, maybe Gnome maps or Google Maps web, but I'm not paying for two devices.
And the PinePhone Pro is a brick: 160.8mm x 76.6mm x 11.1mm and 215 grams. I'm looking at the 11.1 mm and the 215 grams. Granted, 200 grams is becoming worryingly normal for the new flagships but it's still a brick and those flagships are bricks too. I'm not buying something like that. If they want me to go around with 200 grams in my pocket they pay me. The A40 is 140 grams. I'm afraid there won't be alternatives for that in a few years too, and I don't buy stuff from Apple or one of the old SEs would be a solution until they will also grow big and fat.
(*) I'm also not logging in into GitHub since they forced me on 2FA, because of the extra pass. I currently don't need it for my job and I don't have to open issues to open source projects. The first time I'll have to I'll count to ten and see what to do.
I have a PinePhone Pro, it's not too bad really. It's quite large for someone who wants a tiny phone but PinePhones are still experimental devices and its form factor is kinda the least of my concerns. I'm sure various form factors will follow with a mature Linux mobile ecosystem.
I'll give it a try. It doesn't change that 2FA is a pain and I'll log into GitHub only if strictly necessary. Maybe reduced logins are part of their security plan.
The Pinephone can suffer from the same issue where people maintaining the software included may decide they no longer want to maintain their software anymore. It's no different for this. Either someone needs to step up to mountain it or you replace it with something else. Wanting to get rid of the rest of Android just because dialer and messenger are no longer maintained is throwing the baby out with the bath water.
The difference is one is planned. Google promotes dependency on their services. There are alternatives to gapps. There are also alternatives to paved roads. The problem is they add more hoops to jump through. They care about the 99 percentile. Those won't keep chasing said hoops.
While large orgs help maintain relevant FOSS, to them, AOSP is left to rot. In our case, several k employees, we have teams dedicated to relevant FOSS tools. My wife, at a startup, have 20% paid worktime a week to contribute to whatever they want.
Your analogy, at face value, makes sense. Adding a few more lenses to the analysis weakens it severely.
> There are alternatives to gapps. There are also alternatives to paved roads. The problem is they add more hoops to jump through.
Because going for a mobile linux distro does not involve jumping through hoops?
> While large orgs help maintain relevant FOSS, to them, AOSP is left to rot.
Not sure what you mean by that. AOSP is still maintained, and there are quite a few de-Googled ROMs (LineageOS, GrapheneOS, /e/OS, CalyxOS, ...) that are really becoming very good.
> Because going for a mobile linux distro does not involve jumping through hoops?
Parent said "add more hoops to jump through".
We are speaking about the direction and intents. Google makes it harder and harder to avoid the Google ecosystem.
Mobile Linux does not add hoops to jump through. The intent is making things easier as time passes.
Of course today all this is still experimental and of course you need to jump through many hoops.
> Not sure what you mean by that. AOSP is still maintained
Yes, the base system is still maintained, but the concern is that Google increasingly adds features into proprietary gapps instead of AOSP proper. And the post we are discussing is exactly a sign of this tendency.
But parent was talking about a comparison with running a Linux mobile distro on a PinePhone. Using PostmarketOS or similar (and don't get me wrong, I find PostmarketOS very cool) is still orders of magnitudes harder than using a custom ROM like /e/OS or CalyxOS. And those custom ROMs are improving fast, too.
> Mobile Linux does not add hoops to jump through. The intent is making things easier as time passes.
Same for custom Android ROMs. Except that they are already much more usable than Mobile Linux.
> Yes, the base system is still maintained, but the concern is that Google increasingly adds features into proprietary gapps instead of AOSP proper.
Google's strategy and lock-in with the Play Services is nothing close to a surprise. But again, I think dropping support for those two (basic, let's be honest) apps is really not a problem.
Actually a bigger problem, to me, is app developers who rely on the Play Services because it's easier for them, and because they don't care about custom ROMs. And of course Google pushes for that, but in the end, app developers can pretty easily do their part to not make life more difficult for custom ROMs.
> But parent was talking about a comparison with running a Linux mobile distro on a PinePhone
But the comparison works. No mobile linux distro adds hoops to jump through.
Of course (Almost?) nobody thinks that mobile linux is as convenient / usable as Android right know.
For many of us it's about developing an ecosystem that's truly open source / that does not rely on Google.
> But again, I think dropping support for those two (basic, let's be honest) apps is really not a problem.
No, indeed. The custom rom will survive. There seems to be correct alternative apps, and someone might even put the effort in maintaining the AOSP ones.
It's just a symptom / a clue of the broader issue.
> But the comparison works. No mobile linux distro adds hoops to jump through.
Right. Sounds a bit pedantic to me, but okay :).
I guess my point is that AOSP is open source, and in a much better shape for mobile than Mobile Linux.
It is great to see work going on with Mobile Linux, and I find projects like PostmarketOS really cool. I just don't like how (some) Mobile Linux fans apparently seem to jump on every opportunity to say that Android is doomed and Mobile Linux is the only way.
Ah, the distinction is important indeed :-)
The expectation is that things are improving.
I think many people in the mobile Linux do think Android is doomed, or at least is not an interesting path anymore for the long run. That's what drives them. Android works, but has some flaws this ecosystem can't see being avoided. Being stuck with the custom kernel and the proprietary drivers is one of them.
Personally, I'd be happy with an Android phone that can run free of proprietary drivers with the mainline kernel.
Most Android devices use a downstream kernel that has modifications that were made specifically for the device. In other words, most Android devices are not mainlined. I guess it is reasonable to call "custom" anything that is not the mainline kernel, isn't it?
What's your point? If free drivers are available you have the freedom to use free drivers. If they aren't available you don't unless you make them yourself.
My point is that for Linux phones you are free from those Googe-created problems of the long-term support. You simply use the mainline kernel and your device works forever.
> unless you make them yourself
You almost never can write free drivers yourself, because the hardware specs are closed. You would need to do reverse-engineering, which is too costly.
A few questions:
1. Given the existence of FOSS alternatives, is it important that these apps live as part of AOSP? It seems to me that this is an improvement as a bad default is worse than no default.
2. Given the apps were not maintained by Google, did anyone else volunteer to maintain them? Has anyone tried to upstream an alternative app to AOSP which will be maintained?
Pinephone has multiple compatible os-s, while most android phones don't have alternatives and become unusable if android drops support for them. Also, Google and the big OEM-s have the incentive to break compatibility to provide you with the newest gadget, which is not true for the pines. yet.
But these custom ROMs are hard to maintain especially as soon as when the phone manufacturer drops support.
There's no way to get the latest AOSP on these devices forever. Hard work is required to port any new version and that's not always possible because AOSP comes to rely on newer kernel versions but you are stuck with the heavily customized one (+ the blobs) the manufacturer provided.
Ever tried LineageOS, /e/OS, GrapheneOS or CalyxOS?
Of course you need to choose a supported phone, but these days there are plenty. And those alternative ROMs are getting really, really good. I have been running /e/OS for two years and I can't tell you a single thing I cannot do because of that (maybe a banking app started crashing once, and after I updated it, it was fine?).
The biggest thing really is that instead of Google Maps, I use one of the awesome OSM apps (Organic Maps and OSMAnd, in my case). And maybe it takes a little bit longer to get a GPS fix (I'm talking a couple of minutes, sometimes).
Yes, I have. I know all this. I also know that the phone I was using back then is discontinued from what I can read from the LineageOS website. Which should not happen for a 7 years old device. And in any case, I strongly believe I should not have to use proprietary drivers.
> And maybe it takes a little bit longer to get a GPS fix (I'm talking a couple of minutes, sometimes).
That's probably related to A-GPS. The modem should be able to receive A-GPS data from the phone. It might even be able to fetch this data by itself. Have you tried microG? I had no such issues when I was using an Android phone with Lineage / microG.
Yes that's what I think, too. I use microG, and it's using the "Mozilla Location Service" (which could use some love, maybe?).
Also it's not bad, just a bit slower than Google phones (but Google is really good at tracking, so I expect their A-GPS to have better data, I suppose) :-).
I would export A-GPS [1] data to be the same for everyone. It's just orbital data about the satellites that the GPS satellites also send you, but at a speed of 50 bit/s and you have to wait for the satellite to start broadcast it. As a consequence, it would take about 10 mins to have a fix, while it is instantaneous when the data is already there because it was downloaded beforehand. This data is typically provided by Qualcomm for phones based on their chips, but I guess this data is provided by many other companies.
This is how you would typically do it on a phone running mobile Linux / ModemManager:
wget -N http://xtrapath2.izatcloud.net/xtra3gr.bin
sudo mmcli -m any --location-inject-assistance-data=xtra3gr.bin
And I do get an instant GPS fix on the PinePhone Pro with this.
I don't know how it works on Android, I didn't know how this stuff worked back then, I would expect something in the OS to fetch and inject A-GPS data on a regular schedule but that might be something to look into on your side. Some devices are just worse than others when it comes to get a GPS fix, regardless the OS.
Oh, I thought it relied on stuff like WiFi/Cell-based localization. Now I wonder if something is wrong with my software, or if the Fairphone 3+ is just slow at getting a GPS fix :)
Wow... people, can you please just read a bit about AOSP before dropping such complaints?
There is no "Android drops support for them". It's "Google drops support for them". Google maintains AOSP, but if they stopped doing that, probably AOSP would survive in some form. Also I am not convinced that companies like Samsung would be happy to go with a completely proprietary Google OS, so chances are that they would get more involved into AOSP.
Pinephone has nothing to do with the OS, it is a smartphone. You can install Linux mobile distros (like PostmarketOS) on many mainstream phones (like Samsung, etc), and you can install Android on your Pinephone. That is completely orthogonal.
To run Linux mobile distros on regular Android phones, you need to have an Android base because essential features of these phones are implemented in closed source user space drivers that expect an Android system. You are basically stuck with the kernel your phone came with, plus some of its user space. That's what libhybris is for.
In practice, development of this is slow as far as I know, and you need someone to port your specific device to it so you can run linux distros on it. But distros maintainers are more or less focusing on the Pinephone and the Librem 5 now that devices not requiring such blobs.
As for running Android on the PinePhone, that's technically possible but in practice not much works AFAIK because people are focusing on the Linux mobile ecosystem instead.
> There is no "Android drops support for them". It's "Google drops support for them".
In which ways the distinction is useful? In any case, when your Android phone manufacturer drops support for your device, you are pretty much stuck on your heavily customized Linux kernel and your closed-source userspace drivers that expect this old kernel and its specific patches. They also expect the specific version of Android the phone comes with because Android may change APIs and drop features they are relying on. Porting to newer Android versions is not always impossible, but it's hard work.
The PinePhone I boot in 2020 runs the latest mainline kernel, which is the whole point of this kind of device.
Sorry, I am not completely sure I understand the point you are trying to make.
Yes, devices that work with the mainline kernel are better supported. Both for Android and for Mobile Linux.
> In which ways the distinction is useful?
Because people not making the distinction tend to conclude "you should move to a Mobile Linux instead". Which is completely wrong: while there are active Mobile Linux projects, there are active AOSP-based projects.
Android, today, is completely functional without Google (I have been running a de-Googled ROM for 2 years). I played a lot with PostmarketOS, and while it is very cool, it is still very, very far from Android. Even more so if you don't run waydroid and hope for people to write good mobile apps with some kind of C++ cross-platform framework like Qt.
> Android, today, is completely functional without Google
I know, I have used microG and all that stuff.
My point is that the way they are produced, Android phones are not built to last / be kept up to date. I don't believe it's a problem with AOSP proper, I could run the latest Android on a 12 year old intel tablet (difficult with 1G of RAM, but still). But that's because it can run a mainline Linux kernel when no Android phone currently can.
> My point is that the way they are produced, Android phones are not built to last / be kept up to date.
Agreed, most Android phones are not built to last. Some are, though (I own a Fairphone, for instance). And some mainstream Android phones (talking Samsung and the likes) are maintained by custom ROMs like LineageOS. I mean GrapheneOS explicitly targets the Pixel line.
Also projects like PostmarketOS have been mainlining many phones, I think. I would guess that this also benefits Android?
Fairphone does make impressive efforts toward this direction indeed. Their push towards more ethical manufacturing is also great. I which their phone didn't rely on proprietary drivers.
> Also projects like PostmarketOS have been mainlining many phones
There's only so much they can do, but if they manage to mainline Android phones, that's obviously great news for their owners, including if they want to stay on Android because this probably eases porting new versions a lot.
The real concern is not the loss of the AOSP apps but the lack of new but mandatory features in AOSP and even more undocumented APIs.
For example, RCS only works with Google messenger and there's no sign of that expanding (unless your Samsung). Even Visual Voicemail which should/is an open standard has a lot of carrier specific code (I think it can still be extracted from the Google Phone app but I'm not sure on the license).
NFC payments (tap2pay) seem to be impossible outside the few blessed implementations and even running those is a cat & mouse game with SafetyNet (now called Play Integrity).
Android is still the most open source mobile OS (that's functional and has real security; mobile Linux doesn't count). But IMO it better remember why people pick it over iOS.
I'm still optimistic, if open standards for the basic functionality is going to survive; it will be on Android.
I don't get how Google can continue to call RCS an "industry standard" and do their campaigns publicly shaming Apple for not implementing it when this is the case.
Not to mention RCS messages are mostly being routed through Google's own servers anyway because no carriers have implemented it. No wonder they want Apple to get on board with this "standard," it replaces SMS with a Google service.
Google should not even have the slightest say when it comes to messaging. They've launched and killed so many messenger services throughout the years.
You're of course right about Google being hypocrites because they want to route messages for Apple users through Google servers. The RCS standard doesn't support E2EE natively, so Google will see everything unless you use Google Messages which implements E2EE, but who knows that data they collect there..
I wonder if Google would agree to RCS with Apple running the servers. I seriously doubt it.
I am curious, how is the experience of running GrapheneOS on the Google Fold? On my Pixel 6 it runs quite well, but I would imagine that the Folding aspect brings in quite a bit of additional complexity.
So far it's been good, it's a lot faster than my Pixel 5 on GOS. I didn't play with the stock OS much but basic UI for the fold works the same.
It's individual apps that need fold and/or tablet support like I have the use Gboard to get a decent tablet mode keyboard and the Pixel Camera to support the different camera modes.
Overall it's quite obvious that it's really a phone + tablet which means a lot of things work OK but won't handle the 90 degree fold mode (table top) well. Also the tablet UI of many apps (especially FOSS) are unpolished.
Ok, naive question but I would dearly love to have an informed answer as another phone of mine is dying, it is still TINA and I can't for the life of me project how this will play out:
The first iphone was released in 2007. That's like 15 years ago. People were probably toying with "smart" phones already few years before that. Its not that the world doesn't know how to manufacture smartphones and/or write software for them.
How come in 2023 there isn't an open source mobile phone that is reliable as a daily driver phone? With a financially healthy entity behind it. NB: It doesn't matter if its android or linux or firefox os or anything else.
Surely there is a market for such a device. 1% of a billion is a big number.
Is it because (pick all that apply or please add the true reason):
* Are manufacturers a cartel and won't allow breaking the duopoly? (Doesn't seem plausible, Samsung toyed with Tizen)
* Are governments happy to strike deals with the duopoly? (Doesn't seem plausible, at least in the EU)
* Is it the telecoms that somehow don't want this to happen? Why would that be?
* Is it the FOSS community that can't get its act together? (Doesn't seem plausible, both F-Droid and e.g., KDE mobile communities seem more than on top of supporting this)
So where is the bottleneck? A free mobile device is maybe the most important piece of technology one could have at this moment. I can imagine various actors that would not want it to happen but at the same time all sorts of other actors that would very much want it to happen.
Not an expert, but have worked on phones before. My guess: much more aspects of mobile phones are patented or secret, parts aren’t available to small purchasers, weak OSS culture around PCB design at the level of complexity a mobile phone achieves, lack of support from carriers, general complexity and variety of disciplines required to successfully construct a phone.
Remember that there’s also not really that many open source computers either. The difference is mostly that computers are designed to be general purpose OS booters, whereas phones are locked down consumption slabs.
> Surely there is a market for such a device. 1% of a billion is a big number.
>* Are manufacturers a cartel and won't allow breaking the duopoly? (Doesn't seem plausible, Samsung toyed with Tizen)
I don't think it's a simple duopoly, but an application of Conway's law across the whole globalized tech industry [1]. Keep in mind that originally Android was the open source option, and it's been gradually become less and less amenable to that.
In my mind, I think of the "progress" of the consumer electronics industry (especially in the last 20 years) as undergoing constant and aggressive "distillation" process, converting people away from the FOSS side of the spectrum which offers freedom and control towards the locked down centralization side which offers dependence, convenience, and safety. The 1% market is basically the left over Azeotrope that can't quite be gotten rid of.
The experiments to harness that 1% market are the exception that proves the rule. Locked down centralized solutions are optimal for the tech market as it exists today. Samsung thought they could squeeze some money out of the 1% by being the "master" of Tizen, but realized that the game theory works out such that they would be better off as a servant of Android.
On top of all that, I think as the smartphone capture gets deeper and deeper, being in 1% is not even necessarily a 1-to-1 for FOSS values anymore. I used to fantasize about having a cool handheld Linux computer I could control freely. Now I'm more obsessed than ever about avoiding globalized tech, but I just don't care about smartphones anymore. I carry around an iPhone as the mark of the beast, but at least (I tell myself) I don't let it into my soul.
Because manufacturing mobile phones is hard and expensive. Companies have large teams of hardware and software people will incentivized to develop phones and lots of them fail.
The best we’ve got so far are exactly custom android builds like grapheneOS or lineage that replace software on phones other companies build. Apparently google doesn’t like that, though, so they’re going to continue to make AOSP worse and worse to protect their spyware.
The best case currently probably varies between something like grapheneOS on a pixel phone or lineageOS which is less privacy focused but has a much wider range of supported devices.
Check out the Volla phone. Then look at the price and imagine a retail scenario where a person is going to purchase a "no name" FOSS phone or a Samsung. The scale of the marketing is unfathomable.
I agree with you. But you are assuming everyone in the world thinks logically, let alone understands why FOSS is a better option.
> But you are assuming everyone in the world thinks logically, let alone understands why FOSS is a better option.
I know and I have accepted this argument for a long time. But as things get ever more commoditised and the unease with the existing arrangements keeps monotonically growing the silence is kinda deafening.
If we could somehow get a basic white-label device going the magic of FOSS would work its miracle eventually. Think of modern linux desktops and servers. They are not for everyone but they are indispensable in their niche.
Purism is targeting exactly that, and they had to increase the price of their phone from $600 to $1300 due to the problems I mentioned in another comment.
Manufacturers do not care about orders less than 10,000 units. They make their money off of volume.
The only government that seems to care about these topics is China, although the rest of the world seems to be catching up on a strong desire to tie the individual to a device.
Telecoms require $500,000 per device for certification through GSMA.
FOSS can only do so much with closed modems. Porting to new devices comes with a heap of issues that require time, which means scaling to market is not viable without $$$.
> This development comes at a high price. We have a team of about 15 developers full time working on this for almost two years.
This is not peanuts but it also doesn't strike me as a serious bottleneck. It is a rounding error in the budget of any serious entity that might want to get involved in this.
Building a high quality device is a very different beast from the "small" software-projects or gadgets we get from the FOSS-sphere. And even in software there are not that many big projects who carry their whole own ecosphere. There were many projects building FOSS-Smartphpones over the years, most of them failed because of lack of ability I would say.
At the end of the day, while there are many who want FOSS-products, not many are willing to cope with bad experience for they beloved tools. So the actual market is very small if you can't deliver the daily drivers.
The much bigger thing making life difficult for Custom ROM fans is the "device fingerprint" nonsense making your device condemned to fail SafetyNet. Hope you never want to run a banking app.
I got a locked iPhone SE 2020 from a prepaid carrier and never inserted the SIM card. It cost me under USD 200 including the one month of service but I just wanted to use this device on WiFi.
I can now leave all banking apps out of my xiaomi phone running lineage.
Interestingly, Netflix was the one that give me problem (refused to run with unlocked bootloader). I can run all banking apps I need (5 of them) on my phone with unlocked bootloader just fine.
Hmm. My phone runs LineageOS for microG, and both Netflix and my banking apps work fine. The bootloader remains unlocked. microG settings say that Google SafetyNet is on.
On GrapheneOS (bootloader is locked at the end of installation) I get no problem nor warning.
Google Wallet does does not allow to add a card, though, due to that failure of the "CTS Profile Match", which I assume is what you mean by "device fingerprint".
I got a new Android phone two weeks ago, Google's default messaging app has turned into such a mess that I've replaced it with one from F-Droid already - and I'm liable to do the same with Photos.
I think this will have precisely zero impact on "custom ROM fans".
Slow response, sorry - too soon to say I recommend it but I'm currently using Simple SMS Messenger as mentioned in a sibling comment. Not at all fancy, works fine so far.
Google could have pretty much owned the entire messaging ecosystem today had they just done it properly to start with.
When Android was new, you had to wait for eventually Skype to do an Android release. Then there was Hangout, Talk, Duo, Meet, ... and of course the built in SMS app.
Title could just be "Google deprecates open source Dialer and Messages apps". But yeah, this is hardly a surprise, almost every app Google had on Android used to be open source and nearly all of them have been replaced with proprietary variants over time.
Ubuntu actually pioneered the domain with Ubuntu Phone, and then abandoned it. It's been taken over by UBPorts, a community effort, with Lomiri for it's graphical environment. I don't know these much, as I think they don't let you run regular Linux apps.
There are many linux mobile distributions, I think the most mature / widespread ones are Mobian, PostmarketOS and Manjaro. And UBPorts of course.
Mobian has been upstreaming most of its work to Debian proper, which is cool. I'm using Mobian but there's not much Mobian-specific stuff remaining. I think they nailed the development model.
Yes, I always forget about it (because I'm not interested personally. The way I see it is that if I want a mostly open source mobile OS but with some proprietary blobs, Android is just fine. I just can't justify using SailfishOS).
From what I have been able to determine as a user, the sanctions have been a big blow to the company, but they are still able to operate in Western countries and are also seeking partnerships in China. We'll have to see if they can pull through and keep some part of their business profitable.
I strongly disagree. It's just another step towards other open source apps taking over those two use-cases on alternative Android systems. AOSP is still open source, and maintained by Google. So this doesn't seem like a big deal to me, like at all.
I feel like people tend to really under-estimate the difference between "proper linux distros" (why "proper", btw?) and Android. Android was designed for smartphones, good luck catching up with "proper" distros.
This has absolutely zero consequences for custom ROM fans. Google hasn't been maintaining these open source apps for years. All custom ROMs use forks, alternatives, or even the proprietary Google ones.
Is Linux not open source because it doesn't ship with client apps by default?
There are tons of things to criticize google for, but the fact that they won't maintain a client app that's so barebone it's practically unusable anyway, isn't one of them.
Would you call Windows "open source" just because you run a few open source apps on it?
Google is slowly but surely turning more and more components of Android into closed source code. This is a targeted effort to kill AOSP and lock consumers into their ecosystem. The end result will probably look a lot like macOS: a few open source parts, but primarily a proprietary stack.
If the bootloader, all of the services, the kernel, the window manager, etc were open source, but edge was closed source and bundled in a separate version of Windows then yes I would consider Windows an open source operating system.
Because the desktop OS is used for so much more. But if the core functionality is missing, the point is lost. A better analogy, as you like to play games, is a VPN company releasing their app as open source, after being critiqued for privacy issues. Only to find out just the GUI was released but the rest can be installed using a plugin system.
The analogy is lost here because the core is open source but the GUI is not. Core system services do most of the heavy lifting for these apps and that remains in AOSP.
A lot of people still don't see how the operating system as a whole is open source, not having properly supported open source apps is not the best, but while we can make apps and/or update the aosp versions, we can't make an operating system...
I used to flash custom ROMs regularly until 2021, when I bricked a second smartphone. It was a rare mishap (went smoothly the other times), but it made me too scared to try again. This is to say it's already an anxiety inducing operation without Google interfering.
I wonder what the overlap is between people who put custom ROMs on their phones and those who use their phones to make actual phone calls more than once a week.
I think I made my weekly phone call a couple of days ago, only because my ISP doesn't allow cancellations via email.
> Google's decision to deprecate two key open-source apps
What are "two key open-source apps"?
> Google has quietly deprecated support for the Dialer and Messaging apps in AOSP. This means brands need to use their own apps or Google’s latest phone and messaging apps.
Don't custom ROMs use either their own dialer apps or Google's apps already? What are the options other than Goole and your own?
> Custom ROM developers might need to develop their own phone and texting apps
How is this a problem? Developing a basic dialer or a messaging app seems a trivial task (perhaps I'm wrong, I can only judge on the UI/functionality and don't know the internals).
You'll hear that it's been happening since years, and while a lot of us tried to upstream some of our enhancements/changes hardly any of them got accepted ( or anyone is actively working on those apps to review them properly ).
This changes nothing, we'll keep using our forks that didn't see a single change from Google in years at this point :)
I agree with the many siblings that say this news is pretty irrelevant to people who use custom ROMs, but I don't think it's realistic to say that FOSS alternatives exist, at least for SMS. There are multiple references in this thread to Simple SMS, but that app is not at all ready for prime time. If your carrier/ROM didn't bundle an SMS app you can live with, I think you are out of luck. I'm glad to be proved wrong though, if anyone knows of a good SMS app.
QKSMS has a better interface than Simple SMS Messenger, but it's unmaintained, and for me, it had the same or worse problems with MMS than Simple SMS has.
Here are my problems with Simple SMS that are fixed in QKSMS:
1) Long delay updating conversation after receiving a message (>5s).
2) Date sorting broken (old messages appearing at top of queue for no reason).
3) "Failed to send" sms users experience is bad (still testing on qk).
4) MMS sender ID almost always wrong (all messages in group MMS appear to be from the same person until you examine details).
5) Sending MMS with attachment/image always fails without verbose error (still testing qk)
This is pretty abysmal. Do I use the unmaintained app that fixes 3-5 of these issues, or the apparently actively developed one with all the warts? I guess this is the state of basic phone functionality in vendor-free, google-free android.
Not only did it completely ruin my SMS experience when this happened, it cratered my signal use as well. From my perspective, it was a really misguided choice.
I think the need for a featured SMS app might solely be an American problem. My SMS inbox is only occasional 2fa codes and any app with basic features is good enough for me.
I think there are enough American SMS users that the issue is worth discussing. We can also have a thread about how there is no FOSS Whatsapp client. I'd enjoy that discussion as well.
Not really a “fan”, but after about 2 years you’re forced to install some custom ROM to upgrade to a more current version because nobody supports them anymore..
Not related to the article, but I heavily despise this site's cookie management options. How many third party vendors can a site have?? And all of them have "legitimate interest" checked...
Arguably, the main thing standing in the way of a global digital identity scheme is Android fragmentation. From a strategy perspective, Google is probably getting pressure to solve that problem from it's "stakeholders."
The case for the Pine phone and other divergent devices is incredibly urgent.
I disagree with this title. I use /e/ OS, and I couldn't care less about that news. I already use a custom SMS app, and I am not even sure if my system comes with the default dialer.
There are many things Google can do to make like more difficult for custom ROMs, but I don't think this is one.
Ah, a fellow /e/ user. While I completely agree with you concerning dialer and SMS apps, the mentioned SafetyNet restrictions from the article could be causing problems in the future as many apps, especially banking apps, potentially rely on those.
Perhaps custom ROMs will only ever exist among a relatively small group of "hackers" or whatever you want to call us, but I do really hope we can grow this community in the coming years.
You know that xkcd with n standards, let's add another, now it's n+1? That's kinda how I feel about Android ROMs these days. I'm hopeful we can join forces to a greater extent, and make these platforms easier for less-technical folks to access.
I feel like custom ROMS have become really good these days. I have been using /e/ OS for 2 years, just like a normal stock Android. I got the phone with it (no need to install it myself), and never had to fiddle with it. I don't have the Google Services, but that's my choice.
LineageOS, GrapheneOS, CalyxOS, I think all those are becoming really good.
I've been using custom ROMs since the Galaxy Note 1 came out (my first smartphone). My LG V20 is still working and getting mobile service while on LineageOS. GPS has been finicky on it but I have a Galaxy A70 for driving around for now.
This is not completely off-topic. Google is moving away from open-source making Android more and more proprietary. If you care about it, there should be a moment after which you abandon Google and look elsewhere. For me, it already happened.
Pretty ironic that a smart phone OS won't ship with a standard phone dialer. I guess it's time to get rid of the standard keyboard that's holding back innovation too.
I'm not particularly worried; GrapheneOS is already replacing/improving plenty of AOSP apps, so Messaging & Caller will likely just be added to that list.
You can make a case for Google tbh. Apple has what, 30% of the market at best, while every phone manufacturer uses Google by default. Heck, I don't know where to begin to brake Google's grip without seriously fragment everything.
You can't escape google even if you want to, whereas with Apple you only need to switch phones.
For google, it's an open and shut case. Look up how they force numerous other companies to collude with them using their open handset aliance contract. They explicitly prohibit "forking android" which they consider creating a non-android OS with an android app loader as an "android fork".
The main difficulty for custom ROMs are not these standard apps. The real issues are bootloaders which cannot be unlocked, undocumented binary&buggy firmware blobs, SafetyNet, Google Play Services, and so on. Just look how Google effectively broke the AuroraStore App recently. It's getting more and more difficult to use Android without a Google Account.