I recently switched from Ubuntu to Debian, and I keep wondering to myself why I didn't switch much sooner.
The lack of any integration with a specific desktop environment, and having pure GNU and Linux underneath a pure DE is something that is really quite satisfying. It gives you modularity and customizability without having anything break or feel out of place; something that often happened to me while switching DEs in Ubuntu.
It really has been the benchmark for all free software so far. And the Toy-Story themed releases are a nice touch.
I switched to Debian (Wheezy specifically) after 8 or so years of using Fedora (initially Fedora Core) with a year or two of Gentoo in 2008-9 or so. It really is a breath of fresh air.
You don't realize it initially but Fedora/Ubuntu are suffocating.. rapid releases changing things that didn't need to be changed (I have zero objection to actual improvements, that is the reason I used Fedora for so long (and Gentoo during a time I wasn't satisfied with Fedora's ability to keep up)), focus on the "standard" experience causing unnecessary breakage, etc.
Now I just sit on Debian, look at the other distros, and scratch my head. It seems like they are expending so much effort just spinning their tires. A new Fedora graphical installer? You're only going to use that once, and the existing one wasn't broken! Ubuntu on phones? You haven't even figured out how to get "regular" people to use it on desktops yet where your competition is mostly windows... now you want to compete with iOS and android?
Maybe they are getting somewhere, but it sure as hell appears to be inefficient. Ease off the throttle and do things right.
If you want things done slow and right, use Debian. Part of being a highly fragemented market (which the Linux desktop is) is that each distribution needs to find its own niche. Debian has the slow and stable niche pretty well covered. Ubuntu's distinguishing factor is that it is more cutting edge, and has more personality to it. Simmilarly, Fedora also states on its about page that its goal is to stay cutting edge at the cost of stability.
Remember that Fedora functions in part as RedHat-testing (to use Debian nomenclature), which both explains and justifies why they do many of the things they do.
Yea... I went from Debian to Ubuntu about 5 years ago. Switched back recently, as I've found the farther the Ubuntu gets away from Debian... the less I like it.
Debian to Arch in, no kidding, one day. I barely even knew what happened to me. I almost felt bad about it which is why I try to keep up on what's going on in Debian-land, but I was just setting up some VMs and thought I'd see what pacman was like and then [...]
This never happened to me. It is easy enough to write a custom build environment pkgbuild and put it on the aur, and use an aur helper like pacaur to cache the git repos. I tried gentoo on a vm after getting frustrated and wanting to do a configure / make / install on Samba, but after a few hours compiling coreutils I gave up and concluded that it is just a silly waste of electricity for everyone in the world to recompile the same binaries, or slightly different ones with one feature change that might break interactions with a dozen other applications. Someone else can just build optimized binaries for my architecture and were good, the last 5% isn't worth the power bill, it is cheaper to just buy 5% faster parts.
But I can't go to anything but Arch. I have opensuse on my grandparents PC and I so desperately want to put Arch on it since managing the legacy in any of the distros that aren't Arch (ie, /boot/grub and /boot/grub2 on a standard install, init scripts mixed with systemd units, xinetd + systemd, etc) makes me feel like its 2003 instead of 2013. I sometimes put dual boot Ubuntu / Windows on some of my freelance IT customers to let them pick what they like and keep the other as a failsafe, but tweaking Ubuntu now feels like a chore. I still giggle with glee when installing a new Arch box though.
Oh yes, pkgsrc on linux in general is actually rather nice. I used to frequently use it on university machines in my home directory so that I didn't have to go through the system admins every time I wanted some little tool installed.
Actually I went from Gentoo to Arch. I tried, tirelessly, to run a stable Gentoo desktop (server is much easier). However its not worth the wait in terms of compile times or just emerge pains to begin with. The Arch model is great if you want the cutting edge with stability. Gentoo seems more bleeding edge and less reliable. Defiance is my goto on the reliable side of cloud and virtual instances. Arch and Debian are very complimentary in my case.
Unfortunately, OpenBSD 5.3 didn't have any support for my Atheros WiFi card, so I'm sticking with FreeBSD.
I'll agree that many Linux distros are better for beginners, but I dislike having software which I won't use included in my operating system, and I appreciate the FreeBSD ports system and it's ease of use.
Suspend/resume would be nice, but is not a deal breaker for me, as shutting down and powering on doesn't take so long that it's unreasonable, and with a 12 cell battery my netbook runs all day on a full charge.
FreeBSD does have excellent atheros support thanks to adrian chadd. He's doing wonders for their wireless stack.
As for suspend and resume, it didn't become an issue until recently when my workflow became sit for half-an-hour to an hour, then pick up and move multiple times a day. Rebooting, opening all my programs again, etc. became tedious.
Asking anyone who knows: Is there a way to "backport" Ubuntu-targeted DEBs to Debian? There seems to be a recent movement in what I might call "indie" OSS software (e.g. Docker) where the pre-1.0 versions are only targeted at/built for/tested on Ubuntu, because:
- A. nearly every developer uses Ubuntu on their own workstations, and
- B. Ubuntu has all the other shiny new pre-1.0 stuff to pull in as deps (it's a network effect, in other words.)
So, would, say, slapping Ubuntu's apt repo-set into Debian work to satisfy an Ubuntu-targeted DEB's prerequisites, or would there be tons and tons of conflicts?
Speaking for Docker: it's true that we've only released packages for Ubuntu, but we've been working on a Debian package as well. Starting in 0.6 we expect to offer both in parity.
On a practical note, we are forced to maintain these 2 packages separately if only because Ubuntu uses upstart and Debian doesn't.
Re: network effects of Ubuntu dependencies. In our case that was not a factor, since Docker is a static binary built in Go, and all distros are equally hapless in their management of that. In fact, we are divorcing ourselves completely from distro-specific dependency management. As of this week, docker packages are built by us in an environment we control, not the distro build farms (hint: we build docker with docker). Then we wrap it with fpm and call it a day. Separately, we are working with downstream maintainers of each distro to help them package docker in a policy-compliant way. But those are 2 completely separate tracks.
Hey shykes, I'll come into IRC to discuss this more at some point, but wouldn't it be better to give the main docker package a dependency on docker-startup-scripts and then have that dependency fulfilled either by docker-upstart or docker-sysvinit?
Grab the source packages from Ubuntu and build debs with debuild (see the man page). Most of the time, the build dependencies match up well (the dependencies for the Ubuntu-built debs don't). With pbuilder and friends it's also easy to set up your own PPA-like infrastructure.
I haven't tried it, but probably. Ubuntu is essentially Debian, especially at a low level. Also, the Steam license explicitly allows for third parties to repackage it to work on other platforms. In the event that their is an actual incompatibility, you can always have two versions of whatever dependency installed on the system.
I used to see occasional, unexpected reboots (crashes?) when I had Linux Mint Cinnamon on two of my laptops. So, I switched to Crunchbang on one and Linux Mint Debian Edition on the other; they're lightweight, simple and rock solid.
Happy birthday to my first permanent GNU/Linux distribution, from Etch all the way to Jessie. It's --you've, we've-- come a long way. I hope to see the community remain as strong as ever. The Debian forums were always my weapon of last resort when Google didn't have the answer to my problem, and not once was I let down. And best of luck to the new DPL!
My first release was Potato. I still remember downloading so many (3? 6?) CDs...
God, I feel old.
I don't use Debian much these days, certainly not as a desktop, but it will forever be the "real" Linux distribution in my heart. Without the ongoing work of umpteen Debian package managers, you wouldn't have Ubuntu (and all its humongous downstream), Knoppix, and so on.
I started out with... Rex I think. Or maybe Buzz? I kept the CD's out of nostalgia for a while, but may have finally got rid of them. I liked it so much that, despite not having a lot of skills, I signed up to help, and packaged up a few things. Debian was an awesome learning experience, and a great "escalator" in that I came in with not a lot of knowledge, and by the time I left, knew a whole lot more about a variety of things. I know I'm not the only one for whom it was such a formative experience.
My first Linux experience was downloading Slackware over a slow modem line (I want to say 14.4, but it was a while ago) onto floppies.
I spent about a week downloading perhaps 7 CDs for Woody (I guess it would have been 2002). I'm fairly sure I never actually installed packages from most of the CDs.
People can elect to install a package called "popularity-contest", which reports what packages you've installed to a central server. At release, the most popular packages are put on the first discs.
I downloaded all 7 CDs for Woody, but didn't actually know how to burn a CD from an ISO, so I ended up with 7 coasters. I figured out my mistake and tried again the next week, but this time I picked a distro that only needed one CD: Ubuntu (Hoary). Never managed to get back to straight Debian since then.
When I first installed Woody, I didn't know that you could "apt-get" from the net. I don't remember ever using any of the CDs but 1, but I still have all seven for nostalgic purposes :3
I had to install my first Debian hit (1.1 / buzz) via recycled floppies downloaded over a 33.6k dialup.
There is not a single time at my life since where I haven't had a Debian installation somewhere since (currently have 46 machines running it at my command).
I shyed away from Debian initially, as I had a bad experience with Knoppix on my hardware (though it did pique my interest.) However I do remember that Fedora Core 3 came on 4 CDs though. That was the very early 2000s.
I still remember when Fedora moved to DVDs. I was quite frustrated because I didn't have a DVD burner at the time. Almost 13 years later and my distro of choice fits on a single CD-R; I guess I've come full circle.
I built "slink and a half" and I'm lying in a tent in a field in Switzerland after the main Debian b-day party, bonfire, triple rainbow (no kidding!), etc. Wave!
I assume "joeyh" stands for Joey Hess, a name I recognize from seeing it many, many times over the years. :) I didn't know you did slink-and-a-half though.
Thanks for all your hard work, and especially for introducing me to Debian. Have a wonderful Debian birthday!
Debian has forums? I never knew that. I always use debian-users or #debian. To be honest one of my favorite things about debian is using bts from the commandline or just plain email to submit/query/track bug reports and never having to use forums for bug reporting.
I'm not sure if it is actually a part of the Debian project or just something that grew alongside. Can be useful sometimes, but if your present channels work for you then I'd suggest you might want to do without the 'noise'[1]
PS: never ceases to amaze me that you can download an iso, boot a computer, install an operating system and application software, and do stuff just when you want to without upfront cost (other than time). Debian is a large part of that history isn't it?
> Debian is a large part of that history isn't it?
Debian was an early full Linux distribution, but it wasn't the first. Debians big (early) contribution was apt, which could install packages and resolve dependencies over the internet and made package management easier than rpm based distributions of the time.
That is quite the understatement. I can remember the shock and amazement that came over me the first time I used apt. It was one of those computing moments that I will always remember.
Unfortunately I also remember being frightened whenever I had to read the XFree86 README and saw the section about video cards setting on fire.
I am actually a little embarassed by the extent of my Debian fanboyness. So even though I would like to shower apt with platitudes I think stellar hardware support is most likely the result of a kernel package that provides almost every kernel module turned on.[1]
[1] And to a lesser extent xserver-xorg-{input-all|video-all}
I guess not surprisingly, Debian was the distro that switched me off of Slackware. I remember the defining moments for each distribution for me: in 1993, when we set my computer down on a friend's pool table next to a stack of 20+ disks with Slackware on them. (Took the plunge.) And the moment a coworker told me "just install Debian, and use apt-get." (Stopped having to fiddle with configure and make files for things that I "just needed.")
Very neat indeed, though its sheer size seemed to cause indigestion in every app I tried to display it with (they could display it OK, but try to zoom in/out and prepare to wait...).
It would be even cooler if there was some indication of popularity over time as well, e.g. via variation in line thickness or something (...image gets even bigger... ><).
Hamm here - after tinkering with Red Hat (5.x I think?) I switched to Debian and I've used it ever since. I still have slink CDs somewhere plus the bumper sticker I got with them, which I laminated and is now attached to my Debian home server. (which you can see here: https://twitter.com/jcurbo/status/368424063422566401/photo/1)
Today is also day 6 of DebConf13 [1]. They're live streaming many of the talks. Downloadable videos, slides, and the talk schedule are also linked to from that page.
Though, I have to admit, I downloaded Wheezy and gave it a go. Holy cow, I'm soooooo glad Ubuntu exists. It's amazing all the small touches that Ubuntu does to make Debian unbelievably usable.
That being said, Ubuntu wouldn't exist without Debian. Way to go, Debian!
What do you like about Debian servers of Ubuntu server? I have always used Ubuntu for all my servers and never bothered looking at debian for that.
The big reason I chose Ubuntu and just ran with it is support and security updates. Ubuntu LTS, I believe still, is supported for much longer than Debian is.
LTS was a big deal for me switching over to Ubuntu for servers. We had compliance issues (all software must be vendor supported) with Debian, and not having to replace the entire OS on otherwise perfectly functional servers just because a new release came out six months ago.
Just recently switched to Debian for a server distro. Early in my linux learning, I had been messing around with Gentoo, Fedora, and even Ubuntu. It's taken me so long to understand what Debian is and how important good package management is, but now I'm grateful. Thanks Debian!
Ubuntu's stated focus from the outset is making an enduser distro. Their success in mindshare made them popular in the server arena, but there are little things here and there where it falls behind. Making a server not based on an LTS version is one early trap to fall into (all debian versions are effectively LTS), but more importantly, debian is not fond of retrograde breakages. Ubuntu is much more of a moving target than debian - when you want to find out how to do something, it often changes between releases (one mildly common desktop task (which I can't recall at the moment :/ ) had five different ways to do it over the past five releases...). There's more unique stuff in ubuntu - like upstart, a core feature which no-one else uses - and that reduces your troubleshooting info pool. Ubuntu also has lots of automagic-helpery stuff, which is good for an end-user distro, but gets in the way a little on a server. One example is the 'did you mean?' thing when you make a shell typo. That consumes time and is pointless on a server.
I'm not particularly familiar with CentOS. I've been an apt user since rediscovering linux, and every time I venture onto an rpm-based system, yum just spews hard-to-read crap at me. It feels like rearranging deck chairs, so I head back to what I know.
Debian was my first linux distribution. It took me perhaps a week to download the 7 CDs for Woody (I don't think many of them ever actually got used). I was only 12 and really didn't have a clue what I was doing. My main memories are probably more of frustration than enlightenment... However, as the basis of Knoppix (the first linux distribution that I had much success with) it was a huge pillar in my (and no doubt many others') Linux education. The work put in by the maintainers has had a fantastic knock on effect and provides the basis for so much of the internet infrastructure. It's a brilliant project!
Same here. Although I can't call it hacking. I lived in the middle of nowhere (tech wise, 30k people town in Lithuania) and somehow I found a book (probably the only one about Linux in my native language at that time) about Mandriva with a CD attached to it. Have no idea what that book was doing there in the local book store. Usually it were a dozen of random IT books and they had 1-2 copies of each. After a couple of tries, I installed it. Didn't have any clue what I was doing (I just heard that Linux was a cool thing) but that's how it's started... :)
Happy birthday, indeed! I love the independent spirit of the Debian project, including such extraordinary measures as wrapping their userland around the FreeBSD kernel in addition to Linux[0]. Recently, I've enjoyed using Crunchbang[1], a slick, simple desktop built on top of Debian. To the next 20 years!
I started using Debian around a year back. Been a Linux user for all my professional life. Started with Red Hat, then Fedora, then ArchLinux. I was always aware of Debian but I got the idea that the installation process was a bit tricky (this was way back).
I finally installed Squeeze and the installation process was painless. The dist-upgrade to Wheezy too was easy. And now I'm really glad to see they have a 1 CD download containing only Xfce, which is my display manager of choice.
My first experience with Linux came after downloading Slackware's "A" and "N" sets and writing the images to 5.25" floppy disks. Somehow, this complete "n00b" managed to get Linux installed and get the machine connected to the Internet via dial-up (which was quite a chore back then).
A few weeks later, a handful of people I chatted with on IRC encouraged me to get rid of Slackware and install Debian, so I did. It was a huge learning curve and certainly not the best choice of distribution for a new user but I'm glad I stuck with it. I was forced how to do everything from a command prompt and reading TFM wasn't an option at the time, it was a requirement.
In the 17 years since, I have never regretted my decision. There was a short period where the internal politics became overwhelming and I almost switched, but I told myself to hold off. I am glad I did.
I'm a big fan of OS X and I've flirted with other distributions over the years but I always come back to Debian for my personal machines. In a large environment I actually prefer another distribution but Debian will always be my true love.
I extend thanks to anyone who has been involved in the project over the years and helped move it forward. I owe all of you a beer.
Debian is the center of my linux universe. Happy Birthday and THANKS! to all who contribute to what is the best representation of what computing freedom should be.
We had cake at the office today in honor of Debians 20th birthday. Of course I had to keep reminding everyone why and what Debian was but it was still nice. :)
Happy birthday, old steady. I haven't always been faithful, but always end up coming back to Debian--it was the first distro I could stand to use (after attempting floppy-based Slack, net-install FreeBSD before I knew how to netinstall over a dialup connection, a brief experience in learning how awful RPMs were, and then the absolutely fantastic magic that was and still is Apt), and it's the only one I can ever stand to use for more than a few months.
Even I'm Gentoo fan, I have been used Debian for a long time and it was pure satisfaction. Great Linux distro and I hope it will last forever.
Happy B-day debian :)
The lack of any integration with a specific desktop environment, and having pure GNU and Linux underneath a pure DE is something that is really quite satisfying. It gives you modularity and customizability without having anything break or feel out of place; something that often happened to me while switching DEs in Ubuntu.
It really has been the benchmark for all free software so far. And the Toy-Story themed releases are a nice touch.
Happy birthday, Debian.