I have only recently become aware of what it means to try to work with someone who has ADHD. I’d heard of ADHD but I didn’t know what it was or what the implications were.
Then, a project went terribly terribly wrong. I tried to make sense of it through empathic modelling of my colleagues circumstances, but this only made it worse. I was baffled by that, which is when I realised I needed more information about ADHD, because just placing myself in my colleagues shoes didn’t help when we were using very different thought processes.
Without a model of ADHD thought processes my attempts at empathy were counter-productive.
I’d try to put myself in my colleagues position in order to understand my colleagues feelings but because we have different thought processes this didn’t work at all.
I think I’m seeing the limitations of empathy for the first time. Until I have a better working understanding of ADHD, articles like this with practical tips are my best guide.
> Without a model of ADHD thought processes my attempts at empathy were counter-productive.
This is why I often wonder it empathy isn't overemphasized as a tool in our collective toolbox. When teaching it, we often fail to highlight how essential a coherent model the subject's inner world is to the empath's success. Otherwise, the empath is merely fantasizing about their reactions to similar circumstances - a recipe that can lead to festering resentment.
My professional experience has taught me that proactive empathy can be more harmful to a work environment than a simple combination of humility and compassion.
A piece of that can mean realizing that a team member isn't fit for purpose and either removing or working around them.
It can also mean taking the arduous path of developing an understanding of your coworker's inner-world, as you ended up doing. Even then, I recommend modelling around capacities and thought patterns rather than emotional responses.
There's nothing more obnoxious than a coworker without a clue, or to-which you're indifferent trying to 'understand you'. Especially if they're tremendously off-base.
> My professional experience has taught me that proactive empathy can be more harmful to a work environment than a simple combination of humility and compassion.
This is beautifully put.
> There's nothing more obnoxious than a coworker without a clue, or to-which you're indifferent trying to 'understand you'. Especially if they're tremendously off-base.
I had a colleague try to do this with me, and it led to a couple of the shittiest weeks ever of my career (so far). My self esteem and perception of my own morals were absolutely shattered until I got a better handle on what was really going on.
Thanks for your post, I think you put this really well.
Many friends/parents/co-workers in my life have tried empathy alone, and the gap between their empathy and my actions turned into conflict. The most frustrating is well meaning advice like “try using a planner” or “don’t procrastinate” (I’m struggling to come up with good examples here) which to me sounds almost tautological, like someone telling you “just remember not to forget”.
The thing that constantly amazes me is that for many people, keeping a planner or staying organized aren’t that difficult. I am very effective and have good follow through, and I thought the hard work I had been putting in was what everyone did. Turns out I had ADHD and I was working over-time to keep up with what most people have as a base skill in my industry.
Advice like that is genuinely useful: it allows you to flip a mental switch to throw all future advice from such a person straight to the trash.
The one time I’ve had such advice turn out to be useful was when keeping a diary for track forgetfulness. The instructions were that if you forgot to log your memory for a week, then write that in once you remembered to journal again. That being given as an explicit instruction gave a signal that there was thought put behind the advice rather than spreading generic self-help advice.
Tracking my distraction was a big gamechanger for me. On my desk there is a little block with lines marking everytime i got distracted. After a while all those marks annoyed me very much because for every hour of task there were 20 or so lignes. Its visualizing my inatentiony. After a while it was like a game and those ligns negative points…. Now i have only 5 lignes per hour or so.
Yes, scattered around my apartment are many many once-used attempts at organizational systems. The trouble is I start trying to use one to remember things and then forget about it!
Notes.org file in emacs (or notes.txt in vim, or whatever similar thing) with different sections for different topics. Put everything in there. Sync it to other devices with syncthing. It's searchable, it's everywhere. I think that's a lot safer than dealing with a physical notebook or planner.
Trying to edit and sync a plain text file across iOS, Linux and Windows is such an effort every dozen times I've tried doing so I've lost motivation halfway.
I don't have any iOS devices, but in my comment I recommended a specific piece of software ("Syncthing" is the actual name), and I can assure you it works well on the other operating systems you listed, as well as Android.
If you want to edit the file in multiple places, I think Syncthing is pretty much the best option there is. If you plan to do all edits at the same device but just want to view it elsewhere, something like regularly copying the file to the others with rsync or sftp or whatever your preference is may be enough. I manage some files in syncthing while others are just backed up to a server regularly with rsync. The downside of the one-way copying approach is that you may end up with an old version on some machines at some point, or if you suddenly do want/need to edit on a different device, you then have two versions of the file to deal with. Syncthing is kinda like Dropbox, but it's free software and decentralized. I think it uses bittorrent to copy things between your devices. If you consider yourself forgetful, a more automated/background solution like Syncthing also has benefits over manually copying stuff. You can just read/edit your file as normal and it'll sync so long as the daemon is running.
Fun trivia fact: bullet journaling was created to manage the inventor’s ADHD. I personally go back and forth on how helpful it is for me personally, but it’s been more so than many other strategies.
I've found that having emotional empathy (rather than logical empathy) isn't productive, or efficient.
I have ADHD, and I've worked with people with ADHD. Having emotional empathy for their situations and what they're going through just led me to burnout. Having logical empathy spared me from myself, and cut through most of the bullshit (e.g. drawing the line between what is caused by the illness vs. what is just personality/personal choices).
I think the two most effective lines of thought in this area have been:
1). Are they genuinely interested and motivated (ha! More accurately: "open to") succeeding?
Many times, when you have an illness you can get into self-defeating and self-sabotaging mindsets and habits. There's nothing you can do in this area if they're not "open to" success. If they're not, then that's something they'll have to figure out on their own (and perhaps with a psychologist).
2). If they are genuinely "open to" succeeding: what do they need to succeed?
The major facet of my ADHD is very dogshit executive function. I cannot make complex and linear plans in my head. I cannot hold a rough "map" of what I need to do, order it in importance and what logical steps I need to take, and execute on it. I cannot mentally "keep it together." It's just impossible. I don't have the mental facility -- the same way blind people can't see.
But, that means I've had to figure out how to get around it. Primarily, I've had to structure my environment so that I'm always "on rails." I have everything jotted down, and within my eyesight (if it's in a digital planner/calendar, in some file or app I have to open, I will never open it). I have a routine that lets me do everything I need to do, without ever having to think about it. I have a job that doesn't force me into a "one size fits all" structure. I have flexibility and autonomy on how I approach a task. As long as I get the work done that's needed to be done, I'm allowed to do it however I want.
I think that's a massive hurdle in "accommodating" ADHD: everyone's ADHD manifests differently, and there's no "guide book" on how to accommodate ADHD. The only thing there is is people with ADHD figuring out what they need in order to be successful, communicating that to the people they work with, and then those people listening, and making a good faith effort in doing what's needed.
Otherwise, there's really nothing to be done. It's up to each individual with ADHD to figure out what environment works best for them (as daunting and improbable a task it may seem) -- and getting the people they interact with to, reasonably, not impede on that environment.
Your advice resembles one of the “tips” from the article:
> Finding a job where most of your work is stimulating to you.
In my experience this is 95% of the “accommodation”. I suspect many adults with ADHD are misdiagnosed with depression precisely because working a job that is insufficiently interesting will cause so many constant performance issues that anyone would assume they are doomed to failure in life.
> I suspect many adults with ADHD are misdiagnosed with depression precisely because working a job that is insufficiently interesting
This is the part of adhd I never understand. Being bored of a boring job isn’t a pathology or a disorder, it’s normal. Why do we expect everyone to always be excited by and super into every little part of their job? And if they’re not, they must have adhd? Seems weird
To one with ADHD, boredom is not a minor annoyance—it is pure existential torture. People with ADHD are precisely those for whom a boring job is a sufficient condition for clinical depression. It’s a matter of degree.
But “can’t focus on boring/uninteresting tasks” is often presented as the main symptom. Like … yeah no shit it’s hard to focus on uninteresting things?
Yes. Often in conversation people don't speak in absolutely precise terms, and especially about stuff like this. You are 100% right that that feels tautological when spoken about in that way, and I think it's a real issue with the way that ADHD is understood both amongst people who have it and people who don't.
The difference is, it may be tough for someone without it to focus on boring things. But they still can. But for folks with ADHD, it works a bit differently: first of all, sometimes your brain just kinda decides something isn't interesting, even if you consciously feel interested in it. And so you feel this paralysis, where you both really want to do something, and also just can't do something. Neurotypical adults can go "this sucks but I am gonna do it even if it's uncomfortable" and still get it done, but ADHD folks can be absolutely debilitated by being unable to accomplish tasks, even if they're important.
I have ASD and ADHD and for me the problem isn't an inability to focus on boring tasks. It is a compulsion to be doing something other than whatever it is I'm currently doing. It isn't just work related tasks either. It doesn't matter what I'm doing, I always feel compelled to be somewhere else doing something else.
For example, in work situations, I'll do things like take a programming job writing C++ code and then slack off all the time to study Python. It gets particularly bad if I'm distracted. Open office environments are the worst for me. I'm absolutely crippled by them.
Outside of work, if I go on a dinner date, I'll not talk to the woman and rush through the meal because I feel compelled to leave. I hate sitting through movies because I feel trapped, so I'll watch movies on streaming services instead and watch them in 10 to 20 minute increments.
The compulsion to be elsewhere has gotten a lot worse as I've gotten older. The only three things I've found that kind of help are Adderall, Cannabis, and listening to Isochronic Tones while I'm working. None of them work all the time though.
Have you tried a "dopamine" (see: habit/reward) fast?
I've found I can temporarily hard-reset my "go go go" inclinations, by starving my behavior-reward system of hyper-stimulus (i.e. anything modern; e.g. internet at all, media/music/video, books, rich food, comfortable things, things that I'm "moved" to do). It's basically a "monk" mode where you only surround yourself with relatively low-stimulus stimulus (for example, rich, complex, and tasteful meals would be replaced with bland, tasteless, only-whats-necessary-for-nutrition meals). And this would extend to every single thing in your life (by force), until your reward pathways have downregulated back to a more productive state.
I've found it helpful to do on days without medication (weekends), so at the very least I don't become a soulless robot over the years, and still retain some semblance of a personality (and individual choice).
> Isochronic Tones
I've been inadvertently doing this with Voicemeeter. You can activate "cross channel," and mess with the equalizer, so any sort of music you listen to has that same stimulating "wave" that keeps you in the loop.
On medication, it definitely stops me from hopping around, and going down dead-end alleyways.
Ketamine really cuts through that compulsion, to the point where I find I get stuff done when I take it. It's very much a trade-off between capability and contentment, and it's nice to be enjoy the moment once in a while. I wouldn't be commenting in this post if it weren't for that fact lol.
Same here. The impuls to do other things is controlling me and cannabis and adderal are the only help. Its frustrating because people feel i want to do something else.
Everyone forgets things, but amnesia is still a distinct condition. Everyone has times when they're less motivated, but it isn't depression. Everyone bleeds when cut, but that's not the same as hemophilia. Everyone has headaches, but that's not the same as being prone to migraines.
In all of these cases, the key practical difference is in the extent and impact of the issue. Is the trouble focusing on boring tasks something that's annoying but manageable, or does it get in the way of finishing school or holding down a job?
Physical issues often have a known mechanism that exacerbates the problem. We don't have a great understanding of mechanisms behind most mental health issues at the moment, so both diagnosis and treatment are based on symptoms. I understand there's research showing that ADHD is highly heritable and related to specific structural differences in the brain; I'm not sure how strong the evidence is, but it definitely points to some mechanism behind the condition.
It's not hard. It's often impossible. Even when it's boring but super, super important. And even worse, they KNOW it's super, super important but their brain CAN'T DO IT. Even when it sometimes causes severe problems or issues for them - until it hits panic mode, then the adrenaline can make it possible. But often that is too late.
So true for me. Sometimes i delay things to the point that the crush me. For example taxes… my big luck i am not in prison for paying them that late. Bigger luck i can compensate my adhd with money. …. Thing that suck is the zero tolerance i get when telling people i got adhd and thats why i pay that late. They lough in my face. But a friend of mine with depression is taking super seriously… bur he also arguments like „ give me time to pay this or i kill myself“ ….
The people around you can keep on increasing the social pressure / punishment incentive and make the adrenaline levels high more or less permanently. It ends when you burn out and/or do a mass shooting.
For a neurotypical person, focussing on a boring task is like holding an ice cube - it’s uncomfortable, but not too hard to do it.
For an ADHD person, focussing on a boring task is like holding your hand on a hot stove - your brain won’t even allow you to _attempt_ it because it’s so obviously a bad idea.
Your quote is more literal than you think. It's not "finds it hard to focus on", it's "can't focus on". With ADHD, in many cases, part of your brain will decide without you whether or not you can concentrate on a thing, and you cannot push past it.
Can you clarify the difference between logical & emotional empathy? I haven't heard that distinction before and it's always interesting to parse out the nuances of human thought & feelings.
Not the OP, and I’m not sure if there really is such a distinction, but what I think they were getting at is that “practicing empathy” is often (mis)interpreted as simulating the emotional response that the other is having, and then allowing that emotion to affect your decision-making. The real purpose of empathy is not to inject emotions into every decision and action, but rather to just ensure one doesn’t carelessly trample on others’ emotions.
There is no such thing as logical empathy. Empathy is the ability to perceive someone else's emotional state. i.e. putting yourself in someone's shoes.
Empathy isn't just perceiving emotional states but actually mirroring the emotions of the other person. Feeling emotions "for" the other person. (E.g., feeling "sad for" someone.)
What's being called "logical empathy" here is the perception/understanding that you're calling empathy.
> I’d try to put myself in my colleagues position in order to understand my colleagues feelings but because we have different thought processes this didn’t work at all.
I commend you on acknowledging this. Neurodivergence changes how one experiences situations, skills, and motivations, and many well-meaning people tell neurodivergent folks that they'll magically experience things the way they're "supposed to" if they just build enough character (try harder, see things differently, adjust their attitude, etc.).
You're helping your colleague simply by reacting to them with curiosity, rather than just getting frustrated that they don't fit into the incomplete worldview you had going into the situation.
Your initial attempts were to "put yourself in their shoes" which is a bit impossible if you don't know about what ADHD is like.
The disconnect you experienced was an artifact of the "false consensus effect." You imagined how you would feel in their shoes, and what you would find helpful.
So it wasn't the limits of empathy, but rather the limits of your own understanding and awareness.
Once you learn about their experiences, then you can use empathy to learn from them and reason about them.
> Could you elaborate on what went wrong? Was that type of failure a new occurrence with the person?
Thanks, good question.
Yes it was a totally new circumstance with a friend I'd known for a year who has been minding my dog.
To thank her, I invited her to spend a week at my beach house. The electricians couldn't schedule an appointment for 10 days, so I told her it would be vacant until then, and invited her to go relax with her dog.
She's a fashion designer with a great visual aesthetic.
Immediately upon arrival she was full of ideas to improve the place. Those vertical blinds are lame - you need new curtains in the lounge. The bedroom curtains are tired - replace them. That carpet in the stairs is so old - rip it up and just have bare concrete.
But I only had 10 days before peak season. I told her I liked her ideas, but I'd like to keep the scope small so I can rent the place out after the electricians finish in 10 days. We can revisit the other ideas in March or April, I suggested.
3 weeks later, she'd taken over the place, which was unrentable. She'd ripped up the carpet without my permission, and left hundreds of nails sticking out of the concrete. When I told her how surprised I was, she said we'd talked about that, get over it.
The new Italian leather lounge was thus stuck in the downstairs garage, because it wasn't safe to move it up the stairs. That wasn't a problem for her.
She ripped out the vertical blinds in the living room and dining room, but only half completed the curtains, then stopped and started a dozen other tasks e.g. fairy lights for the deck.
The bedroom curtains didn't work. They hadn't been gathered correctly, and were tied off too short so they didn't close the gap.
She threw out the kitchen curtains, but the blind she replaced them with didn't fit the space, so she cut the ends off. Or, one of the ends. The other one she left sticking out. The hanging hooks weren't in the right place for the three chord pulleys, so she cut one pulley off and now the blind bends in the middle.
For every one of these issues, my friend's response was to start a new initiative!
It took me 2 weeks non-stop to remake the curtains after she left. This is a task I know she could have completed in a day, because I've seen her with a sewing machine and she is brilliant. But she didn't get to this in the context of the renovation in the 3 weeks she was there.
When she left she blamed me for everything and said our relationship was now irreversibly damaged.
I have only recently become aware of what it means to try to work with someone who has ADHD. I’d heard of ADHD but I didn’t know what it was or what the implications were.
Then, a project went terribly terribly wrong. I tried to make sense of it through empathic modelling of my colleagues circumstances, but this only made it worse. I was baffled by that, which is when I realised I needed more information about ADHD, because just placing myself in my colleagues shoes didn’t help when we were using very different thought processes.
Without a model of ADHD thought processes my attempts at empathy were counter-productive.
I’d try to put myself in my colleagues position in order to understand my colleagues feelings but because we have different thought processes this didn’t work at all.
I think I’m seeing the limitations of empathy for the first time. Until I have a better working understanding of ADHD, articles like this with practical tips are my best guide.