Once again, we see the terrible effects of there being not enough technical talent here in the United States.

As we are constantly told by the VCs and large tech firms, we need to open up the green card immigration program to allow developers in who will do the jobs that Americans just won't do. Like, for example, being a full stack web developer who does QA, customer support and data scrubbing for 12 bucks an hour while living in one of America's most expensive cities.

/s

I do agree with you, but to be fair, this is only a single post, likely from some company that either has no idea what they're doing or is deliberately interested in exploiting someone in desperate need of a job.

They clearly know what they are doing. They definitely need people with prolog experience

I'm pretty sure nobody who fits a quarter of their qualifications is in desperate need of a job.

Of course, this is almost certainly a situation where the person writing the job description has absolutely no idea what they actually need so they took a very bizarre shotgun approach.

If you look at their web sites, they're clearly used to crappy developers so they'll think this is the norm.

I've always wondered if you respond and say "Well I could do this for you but it would be $87.50 an hour." if they would respond. A friend of mine who ran a consulting business would do something like that and picked up a few gigs that way.

I tried this on RentACoder a few times. Response was either <crickets> or a polite "no, thank you." I usually only responded to EE hardware or firmware gigs.

Same shit different country (Ireland)... this is very much an international problem, and the reason why software is a good career choice IMO.

> and the reason why software is a good career choice IMO.

I wouldn't know, I can't even get an entry level gig.

If you don't mind me asking, where are you located and what is your general skill set? Do you do web dev? Are you self taught?

Follow his profile, you'll end up here

[link redacted]

Think we have it in Aussie, the 417 ? visa, whereby you can undercut locals with very, very shit talent. These guys should hit them up.

I get you're being sarcastic, but I've heard that immigration doesn't actually have an deliberate effect on wages.

H1B isn't like normal immigration in its effects on wages. They do come over here, but they are at the mercy of their employer to stay. This makes it so the employee can be far more abused (paid lower, working far more hours in worse conditions, ect.). A legal immigrant may be willing to work for a bit less, but since they are able to seek another job without being kicked out, they would have little effect if any on wages. An H1B can't fight and either has to take it or leave and be replaced by someone who is willing to be exploited. Thus they have a far great impact on lowering wages.

There are protections under the law that are susposed to prevent this but they are wildly ineffective.

The H1B that is mostly talked about when it comes to IT jobs and imimgration requires companies to pay at least the prevailing wage for the area in question.

So on average, it should either have wages stay the same OR raise them a tiny bit

The prevailing wage necessarily goes down when the labor supply is increased. This is literally learned on Day 1 of Introduction to Microeconomics.

They are talking about a free market. This is heavily government regulated.

On what day of class do they prove that "Microeconomics" is a Science? Would you care to demonstrate that?

I'm just asking because you're making an appeal to something in that argument, and I'm curious if you're appealing to a serious scientific field of study, or something passing for one.

Karl Popper said falsifiability is an essential feature of any scientific theory, so it's not weird to ask for a falsifiable statement from "Microeconomics" so that we can tell whether it's a scientific theory.

Mind you, I don't disagree with your conclusion that prevailing wages go down when labor supply is increased. What I am asking is whether "Microeconomics" is a science.

In theory this works. In practice, jobs are misclassified and the relationship is otherwise abused in the employer's favor.

Also, background in machine learning, algorithms research, data mining and large dataset visualization, and real-time optimization.

Must multi-task by making coffee, making sure bathrooms are well-stocked with paper goods, occasionally running out to perform errands, walk owner's dogs, etc.

Not required but preferred: deep background in robotics research, computer vision, AI, mechanical engineering.

Must agree to compliment owner on inherent genius in all areas, and also render compliments on owner's cars, sexual achievements, and financial accomplishments.

Candidates with background in deep-space communications, global mobile technology, and mathematical research requisite for those areas of expertise given special consideration.

Successful applicant will be asked periodically to perform remedial sexual services, ritual degradation, self-flogging, coprophagic activities, etc.

Position offers no insurance benefits.

Damn! I was going to apply to this but I only have experience with GoDaddy and BlueHost, but not HostGator. I'll have to take my Prolog experience elsewhere.

SWI-Prolog? DrRacket? This has to be a joke, right?

They're obscure enough that a non-programmer wouldn't likely know they exist, yet nobody with a clue would request that of a web developer. The only plausible explanation I can fathom is that they Googled a list of IDEs and picked a few at random... or that this is a joke.

This actually looks a lot like the product of someone asking several "tech savvy" friends what skills a web developer would need, and then pasting the results into a job announcement.

This practice isn't limited to small shops either - I've seen multi-billion dollar companies (not in the tech sector) require a 4 year CS degree for a Wordpress developer position.

I literally can't image the person, tech savvy or not, who would come up with DrRacket here. Or prolog.

I agree with GP that its' just blind googling.

This would also be a great way to warn other devs off of the company (note that the sites are given).

I actually tried a couple of searches based on your comment and I really didn't get anything that wouldn't taken quite a bit of effort to piece together into this listing.

"what does an expert web programmer know" "what does it take to be a web programmer" "what do I need to know to be a web programmer"

This might be a warning written by someone who is leaving. In other words, with a less-than-friendly parting of ways, his/her final task was to write a job description to hire a replacement. If so, well played.

That's a really interesting theory. Improbable, but I like it.

[i pray] it is. Many of the technologies listed solve the same problems, yet knowledge of "all" is a "must". I've seen some mixed stacks, but never the Java, Scheme, ASP, PHP, C++ one.

I believe $12/hour is also right around the starting wage at In-N-Out Burger in LA, just to put that into perspective.

You can clean houses for twice that, and the shit you have to deal with is far easier to handle.

Why is this being posted? Its not like they are expecting any special skill that anyone who works for minimum wage would not have.

I think that's the joke.

Must have HUGE AMOUNT OF EXPERIENCE IN ALL THE THINGS (with bonus "Hosting" on GitHub)!

Pay rate: $12/hr.

Github hosts code, Github also hosts websites. It's not too outrageous.

Screenshotted for the eventual CL takedown: http://i.imgur.com/CsathsU.png

It will be those who think like you who survive the apocalypse. </humor>

Just did a quick 'whois' on the second domain mentioned (COUTURESHOPELA·COM) and see it has never been registered. I bet some enterprising developer could register it in less than one hour and sell it to them for a bit more than $12.

Any takers?

I think they can't even proofread. It's probably supposed to be coutureshopla.com. That website looks similarly styled to the mnm* one.

Someone has since registered it, so it looks like someone took you up on that offer.

All this is missing is an experience requirement for longer than some technology has existed.

Those ones really crack me up. Its the first filter of the clowns that have no idea what they're talking about. The other glaring one that normally gets/got me back in the day that Java == JavaScript to all agencies.

The problem with the logic in your last statement is that you're using == when you should be using ===.

15+ years experience with Node.js and Go a big +++

Also 5+ years with Swift would be a real advantage.

In case anyone's curious what their site is actually built with: http://builtwith.com/mnmcouture.com

Funny how they mention Magento, but the site is actually on Volusion.

I didn't know Scheme and Prolog programmers were this underpaid.

At least they are paying. Check out this one for "volunteers"

http://letscreateapp.com/LCA%20careers.html

Its flexible, that's the real draw. I'd definitely go for it, being one of the "creatives".

That site is surely a joke, no?

Impressive stack, must be a undercover Google R&D project for fashion VR: • HTML5, CSS3, JavaScript, JQuery, XML, ASP.NET, PHP, SQL. • CMS: WordPress, Drupal, Magento, Joomla. • Web Server Package: LAMP, XAMPP, WAMP. • Web Hosting: BlueHost, GoDaddy, HostGator. • IDE: NetBeans, Notepad++, Dreamweaver, PhpSt • Java, C, C++, C#, Prolog, Scheme. • Hosting: GitHub • IDE: Eclipse, NetBeans, CodeBlocks, Dev-C++, SWI-Prolog, DrRacket. • Web Design: Adobe suite

$12 bucks per hour? You could work at McDonalds in Seatac (just south of Seattle) and make $15.

So I am not a fan of recruiters, ever since the very first one I dealt with tried to screw me on salary. But I did an interesting thing as a consulting gig once: I got paid to interview a guy for a first technical hire at a company. Basically, it was two non-tech cofounders and they needed a developer. They put out ads, got resumes, then realized they don't know how to interview a developer. Friend of a friend of a friend referral => I got to talk to them. Charged them for an hour of work to interview their top candidate and gave them my conclusion.

Always wondered if this is a better business model than non-technical recruiters, at least for a part of the process. And getting paid by the hour means I don't have a conflict of interest to say the candidate is great.

I don't live in LA so am not too sure about the wage market there. But 12$/hr seems pretty low for any job, let alone a developer position, in the second largest city in the US?

I bet some HR person came up with that stack and the corresponding pay.

I doubt this company has an HR person. They most likely stole another job post or this is a complete troll. $12/hr isn't a _bit_ low. It's about $100 per hour low.

As I mentioned in another post, my guess is it's a disgruntled (ex-)employee who was tasked to make the ad. This is a warning to other devs.

Personally, I'm learning to code in Python, and once I do will probably work for $3 per hour doing remote work via a freelancing site. At the moment I'm going through Flask— which shouldn't take more than a couple of days to grok at a basic level. I made a CRUD site a few years ago, so it's not like I'm starting for zero.

Anyway, working for below minimum wage is economically rational. Once I have more experience I'll command more money, or create products for myself.

Don't go that way. Seriously. It's better to offer your services for free to local non-profits than work for peanuts. The main thing is that clients who pay the lowest also treat you the worst. You'll meet a lot of unreasonable demands and overally crappy people while working those very low wage projects.

Go to your local non-profits and offer them your services for free. Be clear that you're just learning and that's why you'd make them a web page or an intranet app for free. You'll get to learn, some feedback, more or less honest customers and karma points. Once you got experience and portfolio, you can go after the better paying projects (~$10/h or so) that are run by sane people who will treat you well.

Source: Started freelancing back in high school, almost 10 years in business.

I learned web programming by building an e-commerce site from scratch in Perl the late 90s. When all was said and done, my partner and I split $2k, which brought my hourly rate to $1-$2/hour. But for 10 years I made $55-$75/hour maintaining that thing - which I hadn't really foreseen I just wanted to learn web programming. The point is it can be worthwhile.

I think we're talking about different things. Did you do freelancing on Elance/Odesk/etc?

I agree that doing a useful real world project for learning is great. If you get paid for it, it's even better. But cheapass clients on those websites are usually a different kind. People want to have a {popular thing} clone or {popular thing} meets {another popular thing} and don't really understand neither what they want from the freelancer nor what they want as the final delivery. Of course, there're good but cheap projects on those marketplaces as well. But as a beginner, it's way too use to stumble upon let's say... not very pleasant clients. Thus if money is not the issue, I'd recommend going the non-profit way instead. They at least know what they want and usually appreciate your work.

Thanks for the input.

I was looking at jobs for Flask/Django devs yesterday. The compensation is quite impressive.

Assuming the job market is similar in a couple of years, I should be fine. And even if it doesn't, I'm interested in creating my own products.

Edit: Grammar.

If they pay by the hour, then I don't care if they want me implement odd requests.

I need some money. Not much. $3 per hour is more than enough—since I have another source of passive income.

I've done a little web design freelancing in the past, so know what to expect. The worst part about freelancing is feature creep, IMO. Which isn't an issue, if I get paid per hour.

I've thought it through. I'm in the UK and could get a minimum wage job with way higher pay. But that wouldn't be coding or making products.

Hey man...this is crazy to me that you would do dev work for $3 per hour. If you put your contact info in your profile I'll send you a month's salary at that rate if you promise to spend that month leveling up properly instead of doing annoying / one-off / generally shitty work for poorly-paying clients. Trust me, the people who are only willing to pay $3/hour are not who you want to be working for. Once you're good you should be able to find a job paying at least 10x that, so you'll be able to pay me back with a day or two of work.

If you are serious about the offer - I would take it. I could explain it in detail via email as to why, but it really boils down to motivation and having somebody who supports you. Currently I'm learning Rails, and I'm having no luck landing a job, since there are so few opportunities in my city. Your help would mean a lot to me, because I'm pressured by just about everybody around me to find any job, just anything really. It stresses me out - I want to finish my projects and start applying to companies again. All I need is one month, and yet I don't have it. You could give me one month! I'll promise doing at least one meaningful commit a day, and I'll even start a blog and everything. If you were kidding then nevermind, I just had to try, since that is probably better than working for people who pay $3/h.

I was serious, but unfortunately a fresh account triggers too many warning flags for me. Good luck in your studies.

You are one generous person!

I'd rather do the work. I intend to code in my free time, so can level up regardless.

Thanks a ton for the offer, anyway!

That's cool if you know what to expect. Per-hour is not the answer to all problems though. I had clients who were very picky about the hours logged.

Make sure to check Freelancers' thread on HN on the 1st of the month.

> I had clients who were very picky about the hours logged.

I code 7 days a week, so even if that happens I'll still clock a decent number of hours. That would be a bit of a deal breaker, though.

> Make sure to check Freelancers' thread on HN on the 1st of the month.

Thanks for the tip!

Surely you are trolling? $3 or pounds per hour in the UK? If you have enough brains to learn coding or a web technology, you have enough brains not to do that. I think I've been trolled.

> $3 or pounds per hour in the UK?

USD.

> If you have enough brains to learn coding or a web technology, you have enough brains not to do that.

I'd rather do that than a non-coding job for more money. In the long run, I think I'll be better off.

I think this is a problem with the industry as a whole. You're generally not very valuable as a new, junior, or in-training developer, so to go from no knowledge to a place where you can learn and earn is tough. However, this creates a squeeze for proficient senior developers. The industry creates a bottleneck for early-career developers that restricts the supply of mature developers, which affords these developers very high market value.

It's not surprising to me that there are ads like this or sites where people can and do willingly work for $3/hour (and not just because their cost of living is lower), while at the same time the higher end of the market starts at nearly 6 figures fully loaded. The market wants senior developers, but doesn't want to invest in junior dev to get there.

If there wasn't a bottleneck, then senior devs wouldn't get paid as much. The bottleneck is similar to an economic moat[0]. Economic moats and durability are attractive.

[0] http://www.morningstar.co.uk/uk/news/120912/what-is-an-econo...

I feel like this has to be some dev exacting revenge on these guys

"Unfortunately, your request for a 5% raise was rejected. We're sorry to see you go. Can you help hire a replacement? Just write up a quick job posting w/ your basic work experience and daily routine. Thanks."

Their site is hosted on Volusion, a hosted ecommerce platform. Probably what they're really hiring for is someone to maintain the template and product SKUs, but figured they'd throw in a bunch of other bullet points related to "web development" thinking it'd get a better employee.

If we define expertise in all the things this post lists at the same level of depth with which the person who posted it understands web design, my semester of Scheme and DrRacket makes me overqualified!

I'm almost tempted to email them and just ask them to define some of the terms they used in this post.

I like how it's a Magento site but knowing Magento isn't required however knowing Scheme is.

It's not even a Magento site - it's Volusion.

The killer line: "Experience in the following programs is a must."

Followed by 35 tools/technologies!

http://i.imgur.com/q6lzN9x.png -- Here's a screenshot for anyone who might stumble upon this thread in the future, because craigslist deletes posts after a couple weeks.

The real punch line would be if they offered equity in exchange for the low salary.

I enjoyed "Must multitask by helping answering phones" too.

Is $24,000 per year even above the poverty line for SF? That's a giant list of expert qualifications for just a tiny bit more than someone gets their first day flipping burgers.

All they have to do is walk out their cushy hipster pad in the garment district down to skid row, and they can probably find 50 qualified individuals for the price ..

I love how after the enormous list of ridiculous requirements, they have, "SEO Knowledge is prefered but not required." Just tops it off perfectly.

They didn't specify the future employee's legal status in the country. Are they accepting resumes from the "undocumented illegal aliens"?

Any idea why do they need prolog?

(I'm assuming that the person who compiled this has a clue, which is a thesis not very well supported by the posting itself...).

Actually, 12 per hour is about 1900 a month. Not bad. Here in Italy, I'm doing development work at a University for far less than that.

I thought these things happened only here in Italy. It's kind of relieving to know that we are not the only ones in this situation.

Wow. I'm sad to admit we see a LOT of this kind of job posts in my city (Mexico city, Mexico). And they get plenty of answers too.

I hope I get it.

Don't forget your two references.

Tempted to apply and send them some NSA-ridden hard drives to get them started.

Serious! Is this the average hourly rate for a web dev in Los Angeles?

My ecommerce business is based out of Los Angeles and our shipping clerk gets that. I wish he knew a dozen programming languages... unfortunately he is still training on email. He can pack the hell out of a box though.

It's off by about an order by magnitude.

It is not. I made more than this as an intern [in high school at the time] in nice parts of LA at very small firms.

Yep, that's the fashion industry for you.

I think they left off the extra 0, no?