These comments make me feel like I'm getting old, which is weird to me. There are so many proactive comments that remind me of my 18 year old self.

Social awkwardness, for me and for a lot of people I know, sort of just vanished with age. - The same kind of weird, unexplainable, vicious attitude that passes for cool among teenagers and some early adults fades for most people. The people who still adhere to that code go off and form their own cliques and you just don't see them anymore. - Real adulthood is simpler socially. With personal stability (job, hobbies, network, etc.) and age you care less and less what people think and put less emphasis on what people think about you. - At the same time, you judge people less and less because, what does your judgment really matter? And when you judge people less you judge yourself less. - A lot of awkwardness is a function of trying hard to fit a social shape and failing. When you let go of most social expectations of yourself and others, in my experience mostly because of age and stability, you lose the awkwardness.

If you really need help with social anxiety I have heard that there are psychologists who are good at treating it, although I have never used one myself.

Take some comfort in knowing that it will probably pass with time.

I was watching Euphoria these days, and reading your comment reminded me of a thought I had watching that. School is like prison. People are forced to spend most of their living hours with one another for long periods of time. So like in prison, weird social dynamic develops itself. Once you're out of prison, everything is much smoother. You can simply exit any toxic situations.

The mention of prison is a cue to link PG's Nerds essay:

http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html

That essay was my first exposure to PG/YC/HN. At the time I was old enough that it felt like someone clearly articulating my past rather than giving me guidance for the future. I think I would have found it comforting in the 80s if it had been written then.

Can you exit toxic situations just like that? If you got a toxic workplace and the job market has been tough... it eerily starts to feel like school again.

The prison as a distilled form of the structure of most social institutions is a big idea in the work put forward by Michel Foucault

I agree with you. In school environment, i usually have more difficulty with things like hanging around with people, speaking in public (panic!!!),... Thinking of dropping because I am tired to always be the "guy who sucks" and crack under exam stress even if I am doing well when it comes to solve real problems.

That's contrary to everything I've heard about having a criminal record. Especially a felony, which is usually what prison is for.

>Take some comfort in knowing that it will probably pass with time.

I mean, it does pass with time, but it's not like you magically become less shy. For me it was the transition to college. I no longer had parents to order food for me, professors won't go out of their way to make sure you get homework in on time or even show up for class, schools don't just make up social events for you, etc. You find you gotta literally step outside your comfort zone because society very much does not care about you cooping up in your apartment building 24/7 (as long as you're paying).

And yes, to some extent it does help that the world metaphorically gets bigger in adult hood. When your social circle is a few hundreds people in grade school, their perception of you matters a lot. When in college it expands to thousands of people, 99% of which you'll never converse with, and larger still in society where you ironically feel more lonely than ever because very few people will come up to you to chat.

---

I agree it will pass in time, but it's not just something you grow out of. You either get plenty of practive with adulthood, or you end up as a recluse that is deemed incompatitble with society. Fight or flight. If they didn't get that same practice I did, they have to undergo it now (or perhaps consult a therapist if the anxiety is truly that severe. Unlikely, but it very well could require some clinical solutions.).

It gets easier: https://youtu.be/S-ixV6nV0HU?t=22

Age has also brought a deeper understanding for me.

I was shy because I was very sensitive to loud noises and bright lights - they overwhelm me. Not in a psychological sense but in a raw sensory overload type way.

The gain on my brain is set quite high and the hustle and bustle of school completely overwhelmed me everyday, year after year.

That led me to believe I was socially completely incapable - which led to social anxiety. Once I was able to understand and not shame myself for needing quiet everything started to change.

I now know that I fear parties and pubs not because of the people so much as because of the overstimulation. The social anxiety is an extra layer over that - and that falls away with age and acceptance of my biological nature.

Do you lose the ability to think and speak in social settings? Like everything becomes utterly confusing? Does it not happen in more intimate gatherings - low light, small room only a few people even though they are strangers? Then you might be dealing not with social anxiety, but with overstimulation.

Overstimulation cannot be beaten, it is a raw innate characteristic of your mind, great for some things bad for others.

@HEmanZ Your point about reducing judgement resonates with me.

I noticed that I rarely think negatively of people who appear awkward, and always admire those who appear to accept their awkwardness and move on rather than fighting hard to rid themselves of it for the sake of others' preferences.

Recognizing that I don't judge other people's awkward moments allows me to apply that same acceptance to my own imperfections. I view myself through my own eyes, not what I think others see when they look at me.

Sometimes I have embarrassing moments that high school me (I'm finishing undergrad now) would have probably cried over, but now I give myself a big mental hug, have a laugh-- there is always humor to be found--and then move on. The more I accept my rough edges, the easier it gets to move on to things that are more important than my lack of social graces. And I think this nonjudgmental attitude is actually making those painfully awkward moments much, much rarer.

I could try very hard to change my behavior and stop being awkward. Maybe I would never have an awkward moment again. But unless I relax the immature impulse to judge, I would always be haunted by memories of those past failures. Letting go of those harsh judgements lightened my load a whole lot more than any behavioral change regime ever could.

I'm only in my early 20s, and the social awkwardness I sometimes felt in high school is mostly gone. I mean sure, there are still some awkward moments here and there. There probably will always be those few times. Unless you're a robot, you'll never not feel anxiety.

I concur though: I'm not even "old" at all, just a couple years out of high school, and speaking to people even in difficult situations feels a lot easier. So +1 to this answer. Getting older tremendously helps.

Your experience still allows two interpretations: it could be either a consequence of getting older, or a consequence of no longer being at high school.

Maybe we shouldn't take shyness for given, but ask what causes it... so that we can avoid that thing, when possible.

One of the causes is people who bully you, or perhaps they don't bully you at the current moment, but they make it obvious that they could if you did something they don't approve of. So you spend a lot of thought worrying about not atracting their attention.

Another cause is lack of actually useful things to do, so people only compare themselves based on their popularity. If you suck at popularity contests, you are at the bottom of the social ladder. There is no way to compensate your lack of popularity by e.g. doing something that matters, because no one cares about that.

If you are adult and make enough money, you can make these problems go away. (Though you need to realize that you have this option; otherwise your own mind can keep you in prison for years.) Move away from the assholes; find friends who are nice. If something bad happens at your job, quit and find another one. Do things that you consider meaningful, and spend time with people who share your values.

And then at some moment you may look at the kids who were cool at high school, and realize that many of them turned out to be quite dysfunctional in real life. The greatest rebels have overdosed on drugs and died. The former playboys are divorced, and now they need to work two jobs in order to pay the child support. The ones who said the most impressive things... they still keep saying the same things, except no one is impressed anymore, because they see it as empty bullshit. The former shy kids are the ones doing interesting things now.

If you do something good, you get rewarded. It may be a social reward, from people who care about the same things. If you are lucky, there is also a financial reward. You realize the haters don't really matter; the dogs bark but the caravan goes on, and you are now a part of a caravan.

Suddenly, there is nothing to be shy about. Sure, there are still people who dislike you and dislike the things you do, etc. They just don't matter anymore.

I know what you mean about getting old and things like this vanishing with age. My oldest has just turned 18 and it's like looking back at an awkward snapshot of yourself.

Yep. Just be kind to people and most everything else takes care of itself with time.

The less you’re affected by negativity from other people the more confident you become in yourself, which really becomes self fulfilling.

I think having kids forces you out of your shell for their sake, you have to be able to speak your mind to strangers, etc. and it becomes easier talking to others to get things done.

Having kids at least gives you a sort of pass for saying ridiculous things in public, and doing otherwise socially frowned-upon things generally.

It reminds me an interview of the "Groland" creators, the best trash and vulgar comedy tv show in France. They use a lot of elderly actors, playing insane characters, lots of nudity etc... There was a question about the choice of using so much elderly actors, they said "they can do almost anything, they have nothing to lose". Nailed it.

Yes this geez why did this become a thread of using MDMA or not, HN really loves to get into the nitty gritty of every problem doesn't it

Practice. Practice practice practice. Which sounds daunting, but…

…now, I realize it’s unfair to map physical appearance to awkwardness, but…let’s take a look at me in 2008 versus 2021. https://imgur.com/7sR0qKt Can you infer I might have been awkward? Because I was awkward. Always had been, and in a lot of ways, I am still am.

But I am vastly better than I used to be. And it was practice. Slow, slow, slow practice. I started at the gym. Built a little confidence. Got a job where I was required to be in more meetings. Built a little more confidence. Moved to a new city. Built even more confidence. Joined a sports league. Built yet even more confidence. It’s a slow process of leveling up and being out there and exposed to the world and learning to live in it.

And as you get older, I find for me it’s gotten easier. People in their late-20s and 30s are not the back-biting den of snakes they were in high school—everyone begins to realize they have their own faults and foibles, and you begin to accept that other people are always going through things too. And, conversely, you begin to realize you’re never the star of anyone else’s internal story. People are paying far less attention to your awkwardness than you think. So…roll with it, find some hobbies you like that involve other people, and just keep practicing.

Just to build upon the Practice element you mentioned, any time you want to change something, then do exposure therapy

Can you go to the bar, speak to 50 people, make 5 excellent business contacts and conquor the world? No

Can you go to the bar and speak to 50 people? No

Can you go to the bar and speak to 3 people? No

Can you go to the bar? Yes

Ok, this time go to the bar, if you're not ready to speak to people then just observe others interactions. Then go home, that's enough for today.

Next time go to the bar, and speak to one person. Practice. That's enough for today.

Next time go a little further.

That's how I started at the gym. I realized I was avoiding the gym because I didn't know to how to go to the gym, do an excellent workout, and not make an idiot of myself. But that's too much at once.

I started by just going to the gym. Just show up. Stand there, look at the equipment and go home.

Next day, go to the gym, lift 1 weight 10 times. Then go home.

Next day, a little more.

Now I easily do an hour in the gym.

Expose yourself to the thing you fear in a reasonable way, repeated exposure with increasing intensity is what people say when they say "Practice, Practice, Practice"

This is a meta-skill that many would benefit from. Find the smallest step towards your goal and try. If it’s too much, back off. If it felt comfortable, try a bigger step.

In general I would agree to your advice of taking small steps, but with the concrete examples, my former self would think "but then everyone remembers me as the creepy guy, who just comes and looks at everyone. I could not go to step 2 then"

Could you switch to a different bar not to be recognized as such?

Yup, one can do that. And then build up a mental map, of places to avoid, leading to embarrassing situations later on ...

What worked for me, was travelling. It is easier to relax, thinking, you will likely never see anyone here again.

(even though the world is quite small and I did in fact saw many again, but that was cool)

Another thing that can be much easier while traveling if you have anxiety is dating. Like you said, there's the comfort in knowing that you'll never see any people there again if you so choose. But if there's also a language barrier, it removes any expectations of witty banter and flirtation that usually relies on familiarity with your local culture and social norms. And there's less pressure to be interesting -- just being a foreigner will often make you interesting to locals without even trying, at least a first.

I agree about practice, but going into a bar and making business connections is pretty different from going to the gym. In five minutes of googling you'll find excellent training programmes, so detailed that a child can follow them. But there is no manual for social interaction, it's much much harder to learn if it doesn't come natural to you.

i love the gentle approach described here. it's the best way to make incremental progress in what seems at first glance to be an insurmountably difficult problem. thank you!

This may sound like a dumb question, but which person in the before picture, and which person in the after? It's like four different people. :D

Middle in the left. Right most in the new. Easy to check on Flick: https://www.flickr.com/photos/perardi/ ;-)

I think rightmost in the old, and leftmost in the new

Ah, that makes more sense. I was thinking OP went from the larger man in the middle to the fit guy on the right - and was thinking, "Well sure! Lose 150 lbs and you'll gain some confidence!"

That was my thoughts too, which led me to assume that the transformative moment was related to some sort of sexual awakening (which comes with a whole slew of positive outcomes like inclusion, belonging and empowerment, particularly if you’ve been in repressive community or mental state). The comment doesn’t mention this all though, so it’s pure speculation.

And lots of chicken breast, right? I’m amazed at your progress!

I worked with you 12 years ago. What a small world!

Can confirm, he was awkward (but also talented)!

Absurd amounts of chicken breast.

(Illini Media?)

Your gains do not have to be someone else's loss

Yep! Good times.

Oh god, I can remember how awkward I was. You’d think the hits to the head in rugby and the drugs would erase some of those memories, but nope.

If I've learned anything from sitcoms, it's that you need an odd number of hits to the head in order to develop amnesia.

What a transformation! I'm speechless. It's like seeing a caterpillar turning into a butterfly. The second pic screams confidence and personality. Thanks for sharing your progress, you are an inspiration.

> Practice. Practice practice practice.

I don't really care about social awkwarness, but I'm annoyed that I used to be really good at presentations and training people, and I suck right now, because of lack of practice. And I didn't even actively practice before the presentation, I just jotted down a few ideas and was really passionate about the subject matter. Nowadays I find a lot of times that I stumble mid idea, forget what I was trying to show and generally break my flow a lot and find myself in "oh, snap, where did I lose them exactly?"

A couple of years of working as a contractor, changing jobs more frequently, the lockdowns and I didn't do a lot of presentations/idea sharing.

So yeah, practice and remember if you don't use it, you lose it.

Have you had children since then, or changed sleep patterns?

I did have a child since then, and my sleep has been better and worse.

Could be lack of sleep, stress and to a degree age

Practice for sure. One thing I noticed with covid was just how out of practice I got. I felt vastly more critical of myself in social situations that would have been very normal pre covid (for example, being the first one to a social gathering and needing to make small talk with the host). Isolation really compounds awkwardness, since awkwardness (generally) leads to more isolation.

I think that social skills really are muscles that need to be developed and maintained. Have you ever tried brushing your teeth with the wrong hand? No amount of thinking and focus will get you the same fluidity as using your usual hand. Instead, you need to just suck for a while and practice until the muscles passively develop. Others have mentioned going to bars or the gym, but I'd also recommend joining a hiking group, a book club, or even attending a church that matches your beliefs. Basically, any sort of activity that has a somewhat consistent group of attendees and where the main focus of the event isn't talking. That way you can still feel successful even if you say very little, which can hopefully reduce the overanalyzing and self doubt that comes from awkwardness.

Give the man a break. He’s displaying his social skills by calling attention to his physical and stylistic transformation in a way that nods at plausible deniability. This is how you do this. Get hot and wear clothes that show you care about clothes is part of self-presentation. Becoming more attractive leads to better social skills almost automatically. People treat you better and you become more confident and both feed on each other.

The cold hard truth that I realized I long time ago is what I call the “two strikes rule”. When you are short (as am I), you already have two strikes against you in society.

You can’t be “short and” - short and broke, short and mean, short and shy, short and fat (which I was until I was 18).

Not denying your experience in any way, just want to remark: I heard (and felt) similar takes regarding a lot of "negative" properties from a lot of different people. Height, weight, race, gender, hair color, stutters, country of origin and even really specific stuff like big ears.

Might be helpful to consider that most people feel like they have two strikes against them already (some of them being more right in their assumption maybe).

I am a short male in my mid twenties and I am also getting to the same conclusion. If you're short, you need to work harder. There is no chance you can be unfit, fat or awekward. You will be screwed. But honestly, sometimes I feel like it's a good blessing. It pushes you to improve many aspects of your life. You want to be successful in your career, you want to work harder, you want to excercise like there is no tomorrow, you want to read more, you want to be more social, etc. It pushes you to become a better person. But the height deficiency is always there and it's an unfortunate tragic event and a very hard truth to swallow. Life is unfair.

I feel for short guys. Apparently it's ok for women to put "swipe right if over 6ft" on dating apps. I doubt I'd get much success with "swipe right if over 36D and you can deep throat"

I've noticed the best dancer in a club is a short guy. Tall guys can just coast, but a bit of time in the gym definitely helps.

As a tall guy, I've always assumed that there is a reason most good male dancers I can think of are average height or shorter. Tall people just don't have the right body proportions and/or fluidity of movement. There's just something that looks gangly and weird when tall guys are dancing.

Maybe that's just what I tell myself to feel better.

So, I normally stick very hard to tech topics on HN, but this (dance and tall folks) is so close to heart I have to chime in:

Have faith! Don't feel bad, lankiness while dancing is just "the emergent property" of what happens when a tall person is learning. Short dancers (of whom the 2 of the best footwork-heads in my old crew were) have their own pathologies to get over, it's not all free lunch, they just look differently when they do. And similarly, as they improve, they can gain a really distinctive style of crisp, clean, fast, small motions. HOWEVER, tall dancers aren't precluded from mastering styles that works with our body either, it just, tall as for short, takes practice. Have a link to one of my favorites, Kapela [0]. I can only hope it inspires others like it does me :) (Going to go do my footwork practice now, in fact, as talking about this got me excited.)

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoBveCfGCZk

Two of the best dancers on the planet are 6'4" twins that go by Les Twins.

I'd actually suggest it's easier to be a good dancer if you're tall and lanky because the movement of your limbs is more apparent.

> It pushes you to become a better person

I'm sure this is true, I've noticed a lot of the best football playing kids in my son's circles are short, and often immigrants.

> There is no chance you can be unfit, fat or awekward

This is just as true if you're tall. You don't get away with being fat or awkward if you're tall. The only thing is that, ceteris paribus, it's more desirable. It doesn't really cancel any other shortcoming.

Not with that attitude my friend.

“Attitude” doesn’t make a difference. It makes no sense for anyone to bury their head in the sand and ignore reality. I took action early on.

- I’ve been in above average shape for most of my adult life - I’m in my late 40s

- I spent a 10+ year stint as a part time fitness instructor. Then life got crazy

- By BigTech standards my compensation is meh. But I work remotely for BigTech in a mid cost of living area

- I’ve been happily married for a decade.

No woman has ever said “you know what? I really want a short overweight broke introvert. It’s what I’ve always dreamed of”.

What people say is not important, obviously no-one will say that, but in practice nobody cares how tall Mick Jagger is, or Gabe in The Office.

Mick Jagger - famous, rich, talented.

Gabe from the office - famous, rich, talented.

You kind of just proved my point.

I’m by no means an incel. But things might have turned out differently if I did have the “third strike”.

My wife of 10 years would and has been with me through thick and thin and I’m 100% confident that she will be no matter what. But I doubt she would have given a 36 year old (at the time) the time of day if I had been 5 foot 5, 350 pounds, flipping burgers at McDonalds and yelling at her “hey shawty, give me dem digits”.

And before the woke police chastise me for picking on “urban Black culture”, not only are “some of my best friends Black”, so are my parents and all of my family.

> 36 year old (at the time) the time of day if I had been 5 foot 5, 350 pounds, flipping burgers at McDonalds and yelling at her “hey shawty, give me dem digits”.

Are you arguing then that she'd have swooned over all that but 6ft tall? Sounds like a real catch.

I am not talking about you, just saying that if you're charismatic height is not relevant, any tinder girl that says she only dates tall guys will forget that if a short rock star shows up.

No idea why you'd say Gabe is famous rich and talented. I'm talking about the character, he's none of those things. No girl would ever look at him, tall or not.

Napoleon was short. He did alright.

Napoleon was not actually short. He was around 169cm which was a little above the average French man of the period.

He also wasn’t dumb, broke, or an introvert…

> Napoleon was routinely bullied by his peers for his accent, birthplace, short stature, mannerisms and inability to speak French quickly. Bonaparte became reserved and melancholy, applying himself to reading.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleon

should he have designed a social graph? /s

i think his demenaour is selfdescribing

Throwing myself out there, getting rejected and snubbed otherwise slapped around a lot .. until I slowly started to figure out how to observe "normal, healthy" people and learn from them.

Among the things we learn is -- that we are much more "plastic" (and able to change by sheer force of will) than we initially thought. Things like hygiene, posture, clarity of speech (such that people can at least understand us) and tonal confidence are, for many of us, simply matters of bad habit that can be unlearned and their negative effects reversed, over time.

The more we improve ourselves in these basic areas, the better we feel about ourselves... and soon enough people notice, and over time it becomes not only gets easier but starts to feel natural. Not instantly but... over time. Until the day comes when you stop thinking (so much) about how "awkward" you are, and instead you're thinking about your new life, your new friends, your hot new relationship, your awesome new day job (if that matters), etc.

That and two other tips: (1) Taking the plunge, and moving to a totally new geographic area (or even just getting a different, much better place in the city where you live) can do wonders; as does (2) Paradoxically, not giving an F about what other people think. That is to say, acknowledging that it matters to some degree, on a certain level ... but in the scheme of things, it also just doesn't matter. Which helps you relax and feel confident (which does a lot to ameliorate the negative perceptions people have of you).

Ironically, I have done exactly the two tips you mentioned, and I can confidently say that my life has changed drastically. In fact, so much so, that when I catch up with people who knew me even two years ago, they usually make a comment.

One thing I was initially afraid of when deciding to move was “running away from my problems” only to realize I’m in the exact same situation as before. Well, that was actually very true. I still felt like the same “awkward” person despite moving across the country. But here’s the difference; I was actually motivated to fix it.

Being in a new city opened my eyes to how much I wanted to explore, but also how much I was holding myself back. Ever since moving, I’ve lost my fear of being myself, have a partner, and found a higher paying job.

My main point here is that while you can’t run away from your true inner self, a new environment can certainly change your perspective and direction. I also want to note that I’m making it sound like it was as easy as moving, so to be transparent, it wasn’t easy. It took a lot of self discipline and discomfort, but it was worth every second of doubt.

You describe an approach to dating that sounds like you're playing a video game and everyone else is an NPC. It's not about ticking achievements off a box. You're playing the race card, but I'm pretty positive that there are countless white males less successful than a claimed fit millionaire guitar-playing you who somehow have found relationships! If you could somehow change your skin color you'd have the same problems because that's no more a meaningful change for building strong relationships than playing guitar or working out.

This comment contains no advice. It just tells that all the tracks I’ve tried are wrong/not useful (in your books, at least).

It contains a lot of advice.

Like:

- stop treating people like NPCs in game, because it makes you look like a simpleton not them - "scoring" is not the goal, living life is - being interesting as a person is much more than "working out", "playing guitar" - if you try to "score" you seem like desperate loser, people see right through it - amount of money in bank account does not mean much if you are desperate loser - people have emotions and it is most important part to understand to "win" in life

Cool, I do none of that.

The lengths that are required for people to acknowledge a problem… The “it must be you” answer.

You're referring to life as a game, and checking off a list of objectives. I might be wrong, but from just what you said it sounds like you did these "phases" because you wanted people to think you were these things, not because you were them. I've found people (especially woman) are good at seeing through these pretenses.

What tells you I wanted people to believe I were these things? I did guitar because it was nice to sing, and the idea of singing around a bonfire and maybe making people sing was just a good feeling. I sang the last song of a friend who died from cancer, and that was a song we had written together. He went for his last sleep on it, that’s the best departure I could imagine for him. Unfortunately, I plateaued at some level, like probably everyone does, so it became boring and annoying to not progress. It doesn’t mean I wasn’t guitar.

Anyway I don’t understand what women are looking for, that’s why I’m getting downvoted.

I want to help, but you actually supported my point. You learnt guitar because you wanted the good feeling of people joining in you, which is the feeling of admiration.

You've supposedly been very successful and are caring of your friends, so I might be wrong of course. But it sounds like a case of socialmedia addiction along with incel-esk belief that if you matched a certain image, women would simply line up. You should do things because they are your passion.

To test this, is there a skill you're proud of and promote as your image that would not be seen as classically attractive? A stunning Pong score, a weirdly advance knowledge of B52 planes? A passion for fantasy books and their effect on the Mongolian peninsula?

And I say all of this as someone who tried to learn guitar because I wanted to have that cool singing moment, but looking back I just wanted to be the center of attention. Which is very unattractive.

> good feeling of people joining in you, which is the feeling of admiration.

Well, look around you, everyone gets their minute on stage, my schoolmates literally were into acting and showing off all the time. Even the thief of the band is with a cute girl now lol. But about ego-fuelled passions: the more everyone has a skill at making something beautiful, the more fun are your parties, because they all add up. So, it’s good to learn stuff, and I mostly want my participation trophy for bringing my share.

> You are supposedly caring of your friends

Yeah I was the one caring for the cancer friend while everyone had swimming pool. I was his worst political enemy when alive, he would have punched me if he had known my opinions, and here I was, his worst enemy, playing him his own song for his last breath, and none of his commie friends were here. Two days later his mother called me saying he never woke up. I was the last guy he saw, and not randomly, I was there every second day despite being 120km away. Me, the guy seen as selfish.

> But it sounds like a case of socialmedia addiction along with incel-esk belief that if you matched a certain image, women would simply line up.

Can you technically describe it in a worse way? I think it’s a case of when a man isn’t successful, we blame him, and we depict him as the worst possible man, like expecting to “have pussy lined up like in the good ol’ times, cause you know, I’m all muscles and virility, big car with big sound, so women dishwasher blahblahblah.” I’m not this man. I’m just angry because I’m losing at life, and everyone caricatures me. I might just not be talented socially despite making all attempts respectfully (and making all attempts respectfully is what girls hate the most - even wifebeaters have a wife, I don’t) but it’s easier to imagine an incel chad, because the goal is to find a way to blame it on the guy.

> You should do things because they are your passion. To test this, is there a skill you're proud of and promote as your image that would not be seen as classically attractive?

Yes, my work: I love building products and participating to the economic world, notably because it’s what I do best, but also because it makes everyone’s life better. Belonging to a charity is equally important. I also like windsurfing and guitar, but I’m average in both. But do realize that no woman is interested in a no-life worker with average level in two things, so yes, men have to adapt and do social stuff which puts them forward, preferably stuff that are halfway towards meeting women on a common ground. So according to your theory (for the return caricature, don’t take it literally), I should now be more seducing because I’m passionate in something. Actually, technically, you are saying not that I should be passionate, but I should be having a “stunning score” in that passion, so being excellent is required.

I think all of those are wrong leads. I think we as men should develop skills in many areas, guitar and windsurf included, and make a living and care for others around us, and girls should like us for who we are, and the fact that I’m not in, is both an unfortunate turn of events AND a very very very high hypocrisy of society about the incredible lack of consideration we give to men. And, perhaps, that society pushes so much into making diversity fashionable, that you really have to give “way more” of yourself as a white straight man, if you want a woman to accept you. And sorry, but I don’t want to be a slave to a woman, and I don’t want either to cheat her ego by flattering her with untrue stuff like so many are doing.

I’m crying because, writing this text, I notice I did so many things right, and I’m still losing at life and people still turn the blame back onto me. It’s an endless roundrobbin of blame, no-one will ever say “Ok guys, we did a mistake as a society, all wifebeaters have a wife, while regular workers get an annoying couple or no wife at all, while people who lie to women drown in pussy. That’s not good for anyone involved.”

There's a lot wrong with society, and the expectations that are put on men which are ultimately damaging isn't talked about enough. Broadly, I think there's a sense that men must "earn" their worth through achievements, i.e. you are not born with inherent 'worth'. This belief is inculcated into us at a young age, explicitly or otherwise, and constantly re-affirmed by our media and culture as a whole.

There are two ironies to this. The first irony is that no matter what some people do, they will not reap the 'rewards' that was promised to them. This becomes obviously true when we remember that we don't live in a just world, at all, of which this fantasy of cosmic justice relies on. The second irony is that this fantasy of cosmic justice is inherently damaging and perpetuates injustice. We need to drop the idea that good things follow good people.

In your case, you're seeing it play out in the dating world, where issues of loneliness and the natural, human desire for intimacy are dismissed as being superficial complaints from basement-dwelling "incels". I am sorry that you experience this. Moreover, there appears to be no correlation between passions for a number of hobbies and lifestyles with what people are ultimately attracted to. Personally, I think we should drop the whole idea that there's a list of things men need to do before women can find them attractive. The same goes for women.

I don't know you personally, and I think these kind of issues hit at the most vulnerable parts of people so I don't want to sway you with any specific ideas of my own. So the only advice I can offer is cautionary: be wary of adopting only a masochistic epistemology. It is tempting to see the world through the lens of "I will never be attractive to women, no matter what I do" and finding every example of this to reinforce it. Everyone who has experienced the darker depths of the human soul knows that there is a pleasure in believing that whatever hurts is true. This leads to a vicious cycle of thoughts. This pessimism must be tempered by an optimistic epistemology. What that bountiful optimism looks like to you, I don't know, but from my experience, it is a missing 'second half' to the world that I had to consciously find which brought a healing and resiliency that deepened my relationship with myself as well as others. Best of luck.

Your kindness to your friend was noble. I apologise for my frank diagnosis. Being talented as a cog of the economy is sadly very classically attractive, doubly so because you again do it because you wish to impact other people. I wish you the best.

Women basically just want masculinity (often described as "confidence", but there's more involved) plus not being an asshole. Everything else is just gravy

You figured out what women want?? Have fun with that.

I have been having fun with it, very often

BALM?

Black, Asian, Latino, or Mixed. Basically he's just a regular white man which gets no love in a lot of liberal areas unless you do something unique like those "phases" he mentioned. He should move. The best thing you can do as a white man is move somewhere that everyone isn't white. Then you will get a lot of attention even if you're very boring.

It’s not about them it’s about you. Do things for you, not them.

If you still insist on making it about them do everything women complain about that’s not illegal, except dick pics, unless you’re hung.

I’d recommend pairing the millionaire thing with bringing a couple grams with you to party. Everything else you described sounds like incel stuff.

"how to observe "normal, healthy" people and learn from them."

Very true! I would go as far as emulating a person you admire due to their ability to interact with others. Deconstruct their interaction and look for the parts that can help you. One thing you will mostly notice is self confidence. People always feel good with people that project that. Make sure it's confidence not arrogance. It's a fine line.

And funnily enough one of the first things you'll notice is that confident people have the same awkward faux pas interactions that would keep you awake at night all the time - maybe even more often, since they aren't so hyper-alert analyzing the conversation. But they just don't care!

And because they don't get all shy and awkward when the awkward thing happens, because they don't make it awkward, the other person doesn't feel awkward either, and maybe at most both parties laugh about it for a moment, the conversation continues and life goes on and that night they sleep the peaceful sleep of the innocent. Or they lie awake worrying about some entirely different set of life problems, because we're all just doing our best and showing the best face we can.

So true, you remember your mistakes way more than anyone else's. Think about it. How many of other people's mistakes do you remember? Not many, if any. You just don't have the time and energy to focus on someone else life. It's hard enough to deal with yours. Be kind to yourself, note mistakes but don't obsess over them.

1) is huge. I really started coming out of my shell when I went traveling - here I was in a foreign country where nobody knew me and I'd never see any of these people ever again. So why not talk to the random person at the train station? Why not walk up and introduce myself to some strangers at the bar? And with that practice I started getting better at it, which made me more confident, which made me more comfortable with it, which made me better at it, and there we have that positive feedback loop.

I would be very interested in any tips regarding improving one’s speech skills. I am way too prone to talking too fast to the point where I have sometimes trouble forming words and any like “I didn’t get that” makes me more anxious increasing my rate of mistakes.

But strangely it largely creeped up to me when I was around 20ish years old, while my teenage anxiety largely diminished.

I personally recommend joining a local Toastmasters club. They can help you with speed, tone, volume, etc. It can benefit your conversational speech as well, not only public speaking.

Or a local speech course. I took an eight-week course in public speaking in college, and it was probably the most useful course I took there. I can do talks in front of tech groups or hobby groups... not without some sweating, but still more effectively than most people.

Breathe in completely, breathe out completely, then breathe in just a little bit before speaking. The breathing out is the most important part.

Read and record yourself. Repeat until you learn what sounds good coming out of your mouth. Write at the same time. Think about your words. Savor both. It makes a world of difference. When you write read aloud.

Share. Communication of all kinds goes together. If you get this far you may also find that practicing your voice in speech and writing will improve your self confidence too.

There's a free short course on Udemy somewhere from Peter Barker who is a professional voice over artist. That's worth looking up - there's a section that covers correcting and improving a lot of common speech problems, from stuttering, talking too fast, mumbling, and how to improve the resonance of your voice. Might be worth a look.

Very interesting name for a voice coach.

Great answer. I agree getting out of one's comfort zone can go a long way to bringing new perspective, and adapting, and developing new skills. Especially social ones.

+1 to worrying less about what other people think of you. Ironically, this caring less can actually make people like you more (because you seem more confident).

How do you stop caring? I would give nearly anything for this superpower. Even obviously completely insignificant moments that matter to no-one can stick with me for days, and some stay with me for years, bubbling up and causing anxiety or low mood out of nowhere. No amount of rational analysis or forced positive thinking seems to help.

For me it was a combination of having achieved some amount of success (physical, financial, career) and also some humbling failure.

Basically I learned I'm not so bad, and I'm not a great man either. I'm good enough. I don't hurt other people.

I like myself, and when you genuinely like yourself then other people's opinions aren't quite as important. Nearly everyone responds positively when you aren't seeking other's approval (but are still kind).

I suspect this comes with age for a lot of people. Didn't happen for me until my 30s. Losing weight and getting into shape was a huge catalyst, I highly recommend it.

You have to expect that quite a few people aren't going to like you, in any case, you just aren't compatible. After all, do you like everybody else?

I'm sure some people don't like me. But they keep it to themselves. Even if they didn't, so what? Unless I did something to hurt them, I shouldn't be upset about it.

Perhaps cognitive behavior therapy could help with your anxiety.

Ecstasy.

I had massive problems speaking with people. I ended up going to a rave with some friends, took some molly, had an amazing time talking to people and then realized that if I could do that with a drug then I could probably do it without a drug. (I haven’t done e in over a decade).

I still had some issues with public speaking so during my mba I forced myself to give every presentation possible. This largely solved that problem.

Note that mdma can kill you, especially if taken without experience. This is not an endorsement of drug taking.

Same here. As a shy guy in my 20s I went to a small club on 300mg of Ecstasy, and over 5 hours I introduced myself to pretty much everybody in the place, asked a random girl to dance and went backstage to chat in another language with the band. I just felt I was a human among other humans. At home among friends.

I must've been pretty clearly high as a kite, but the lesson I learned that night is that people generally are approachable, not that scary and we just want to have a good time. The negative side effects was thinking I had fallen in mad love with a complete stranger, and the extreme dehydration that caused me to drink about 5L of water over as many hours.

I haven't taken MDMA since, I plan to try it again later in my life when I'm content with my place in the world (no more than once a season, as Shulgin recommended), but it was certainly an eye opening experience I will treasure forever. This relaxed and optimistic view of the world and other people has been with me since that very night.

With the correct set and setting, MDMA is something everyone should experience once in their lives.

For anyone thinking of doing this, maybe I'm just being old and cautious, but 300mg is a lot to take in one go if you're new to it.

You'll get the full experience on 100. You can always take more, but never untake what you've had. My brother had a rough first time because he dropped with someone who was a bit of a warrior.

MDMA is a great drug, but best when used responsibly. I avoid alcohol with it these days too, makes for a much cleaner night and a better morning.

Good call, I was aware it was a strong dose, but it was my 3rd roll at that point.

I agree with starting with 100–150mg, and my suggestion for harm reduction is to take 5-HTP for a few days after a trip to restore some of the depleted serotonin. The post-MDMA funk is real.

Also, never redose and never chase the dragon. You will never relive your first MDMA experience, so make it count and enjoy it.

I can echo your positive experience but the effect this has on people around you should also be taken into account. On MDMA you're going to want to talk to everybody about everything and that can lead to awkward situations once you've come down. Not only that but upon noticing your gigantic pupils some people might be a bit freaked out or feel like they're trapped in a conversation with you.

TLDR do it around people who aren't going to mind that you're obviously on MDMA

Certainly, but one aspect of my shyness was being preoccupied over what people would think of me, and sometimes it's good to be oblivious you have dilated pupils and you look on drugs. Sometimes it's good not to overthink and just do and see no harm comes of it.

But of course socialising sober is and feels better, though it does not come as easy.

I had a similar situation. The only time I took half a pill out of curiosity, and I suddenly opened up with everyone around. It was during a time that I was quite grumpy and would often drink heavily, and didn't know how to deal with my feelings.

I felt this odd urge to express myself towards everyone around me and was being very wholesome about it. I was aware that this was odd behavior for me, but I liked it and it felt like I was "letting go".

I noticed what I was feeling and how I was expressing myself and that it was ok. That was enough validation for me to keep on without taking mdma.

This happened just the once. I haven't felt the need to try it out more since then.

Worked for me too.

Note to readers, before you try it you should know the difference between ecstacy, molly/mandy and MDMA. The drug you want is MDMA. Do your research[0] and this drug will be safer than climbing a mountain or something (and way safer than alcohol). Very few people have actually died from this drug but you should understand why they died.

[0] https://erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/mdma_basics.shtml

Safer in terms of the risk of death, sure, but there seem to be other risks involved.[0] That paper doesn't necessarily disagree with anything in the page you linked, and it's pretty old now. I just want to emphasise that it's not a simple decision to make.

[0] https://sci-hub.mksa.top/10.1002/hup.2318

It seems that heavy usage over time would do damage. That seems fairly obvious, to be honest. What would be surprising is if a single dose had long lasting negative effects.

You have to also consider that people like me are essentially broken. Being completely unable to socialise with people puts you on a path of loneliness and misery. Maybe curbing some of my brain's "abilities" is exactly what I needed. I've often noticed that stupid people are happier.

I didn't become stupid, though. If I became stupider then it doesn't matter because that is completely offset by being more able to apply my skills properly. There's no point being a genius if you can't communicate with people.

I developed my social skills in a similar fashion.

I was incredibly closed off as a teenager and shy. Almost to the point of crippling social anxiety. I remember feeling anxiety even interacting with the cashier at McDonald's.

I was 19 when I went to a rave and took MDMA for the first time and it completely opened me up. I became incredibly social in that moment, talking to strangers, having a good time, and opening up emotionally. That enabled me to take more baby steps in social interactions and develop socially.

Magic mushrooms also seemed to allow me to open up. Both drugs have had positive lasting effects on me. I had stopped taking them in my early 20s, but have started experimenting with magic mushrooms again as someone in their late 30s. The shrooms renewed my openness to others.

> Note that mdma can kill you, especially if taken without experience. This is not an endorsement of drug taking.

Alcohol is a bigger killer over time.

Yeah, MDMA ain't really something you can get addicted to in the long run. Diminishing returns over time kinda puts a stop to that.

MDMA and the party/festival scene in general definitely changed me for the better in this sense. I hold those experiences in high regard, and strongly believe that substances can shift your perspective and create real change in your life for the better, if done responsibly.

I will also note that every substance comes with risk, and the best way to reduce that risk is to learn and know as much as you can about the substance and how it affects you. A lot of the general education around drugs is simply "don't do it", but there are plenty of reliable non-biased resources out there. A couple off the top of my head are:

https://drugs.tripsit.me/

https://erowid.org/

This was my first thought too, though not the only part of the puzzle for me. There was actually a study put out by MAPS recently where they found that MDMA can be effective in treating social anxiety for people on the autism spectrum.

Not the first time I’ve heard of this.

Same. Can't wait for this stuff to be studied and legalized at least for meditional use over the next 20 years (if we're being realistic on timelines for this)

It needs to be fully legalized, along with all other drugs. Prohibition only makes things worse

Decriminalized, probably. But I really don’t want to live in a world where heroin is advertised and marketed without restriction. At least not until we figure out how to make humans less fucking stupid when it comes to things that can addict us for life.

I mean, can you imagine if McDonalds marketing budget was spent pushing meth instead?

You say this like McDonalds food isn't already habit forming

Heroin and other opiates need to be available over the counter at a store. This is the only way to remove the black market and the fentanyl tainted supply. If you just decriminalize, people still won't be able to get it and will have to go through a black market.

The market doesn't need to be a free for all, we can choose to make advertising the compounds illegal but still make them available.

If you don't fully legalize, the problem never actually gets solved. Pretty much all drug problems are created by prohibition itself. Full stop.

re "Pretty much all drug problems are created by prohibition itself"

Isn't the US opiod crisis (not heroin specifically) massively driven by the fact that it is fairly easy to get lavish subscription on legal pain killers?

I mean I give it to you that suburbian moms on Vicodin won't roll up to a gas station with a semi-automatic, but they still OD, and that's still a drug problem.

> Isn't the US opiod crisis (not heroin specifically) massively driven by the fact that it is fairly easy to get lavish subscription on legal pain killers?

No. You can get lavish amounts of food and yet not every country is filled with obese people. Maybe life is a little more complicated than a one liner.

> but they still OD, and that's still a drug problem.

People burn themselves with kettles, that's still a kettle problem.

So, what?

I am not sure I follow. Obesity is much, much more prevalent in countries where food (and unhealthy food) is widely and cheaply available. Governments engage in "prohibition" of specific foods all the time, and I find that mostly commendable.

> People burn themselves with kettles, that's still a kettle problem.

> So, what?

Soo I demand that my government thinks about this problem and regulates it, which indeed it does. I would guess that an average Western country has north of fifty regulations directly related to burn hazards of household appliances.

So yes, these are indeed very good examples of government regulation preventing hurt, pain and death.

The reason that crime such as robbery is associated with drug users is drugs are too expensive and the fact that gangs control the drug trade and also commit many of these violent crimes. Making things more available should drop prices if policies are implemented well.

The US opioid crisis has been caused by a multitude of factors, including endemic poverty in some communities combined with physicians being told by producers that the compounds they were prescribing were not addictive (that was a load of shit delivered to increase profits, obviously a bad thing and we need to train physicians better on basic pharmacology). On top of that, now that restrictions have been increased on prescribing people have shifted back to the black market where nothing is regulated and you might get fentanyl hotspots in your heroin which is definitely one of the big reasons for overdoses today. Overdoses were slightly lower when pill mills were operating because people knew exactly how much of what was in the pills they get from Walgreen's or whatever.

The issues I'm referring to are the ones that have been present for much longer. These issues include things such as lack of employment due to drug users having a record, discrimination against users in general stemming from the stigma and association with violent crime (even though 90%+ of users are nonviolent), stigma in treating addiction and mental illnesses, overdoses which almost always stem from a change in how the in regular d suppliers cut their products and change potency (people get used to a certain concentration of active and if that changes they may easily use too much), and the lack of drug education due to the "just say no" ideology which essentially lied to multiple generations about the dangers and mechanisms of psychoactive compounds.

When it comes to alcohol, there are socially learned ways of managing use of the drug (ethanol) in a responsible fashion. Only some small communities have learned how to use other drugs responsibly due to the stigma preventing spread of information.

We also don't have a lot of information on the intersection of these psychoactive compounds and mental illness. Its possible that there are people who have malfunction regulation of endogenous opioids (endorphins) or their receptors which a partial agonist could be used for therapy. There is literally not a single doctor who would prescribe an opiate agonist for mental health issues because the research on things like that is all but banned due to the DEA dragging their feet and refusing to give people licensing to study the compounds (MAPS has had to sue the DEA over this issue). Combine this with funding issues, where only studies looking at downsides of psychoactive get funded and now we have an extremely skewed/biased view.

There are even more issues than I've presented here, but these are the ones at the forefront of my mind when I consider the issues of drug use today. Almost all of these issues have their root in the prohibition of these substances. It would be far easier to not only study and understand drugs without prohibition, but people would also overdose less due to having a reliable, regulated, and affordable supply. The primary issue that feeds into this which isn't due to prohibition itself is poverty, and that's a whole 'nother thing.

Thanks for the in depth answer!

> You say this like McDonalds food isn't already habit forming

I said this because McDonalds has already proven that they can do a lot of damage to people with just food.

Sounds like we should regulate food then maybe?

Food is regulated, so it doesn't seem you have much of a point?

I don't see any regulation on habit forming food constituents. So it seems you missed the point?

Oxytocin agonism is some good shit

To that I would add listening to Mark Farina Mushroom Jazz, Vol. 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIuW-OJY2uY

This is to get in touch with your inner mojo. Also Vol. 8 is awesome.

Not only was I awkward and shy -- but I was an extravert! I wanted to be around other people and got bored easily when I was by myself. But I didn't necessarily have the social skills to pull it off. So I was pretty miserable.

What changed?

I've thought a lot about this, and to be honest, while I would love to say that it was an intense, fulfilling journey of self-improvement ... I think what made the biggest difference was that the people around me changed.

In high school, my peers were brutal and immature. There were bullies. There were people who would be a jerk to you for no reason other than for giggles. And there was a lot of pressure to conform or at least not stick out too much.

Then college came around and I got involved in activities like the student newspaper, a co-ed a cappella group, and several other things. And the people were welcoming and actually wanted me to be a part of their group.

Then, after college, I entered the working world, and while there were always a couple of difficult personalities, the vast majority of the people I worked with were professional, welcoming, appreciated my contributions, and wanted me to succeed.

Yes, I can still be awkward at times. Through practice, I've gotten better at small talk, but I'll still trip over my own words from time to time. But the people with whom I've been fortunate to develop personal or professional relationships tend to have the maturity to accept that part of me.

I second this. There's value in knowing how to behave in situations you deem as hostile, but nothing is more valuable than surrounding yourself with respectful, thoughtful and welcoming people. Doing that helped me to change hostile situations for the better, not only for myself but for other people who also struggle with them.

> Then college came around

I read a lot of such posts by people before i went to university, and boy was i surprised to find the reality can sometimes be very different. If there's any younger folks reading this, YMMV.

> Then, after college, I entered the working world

This is where it actually gets better, or at least it did for me.

I agree with you. One of the reasons why I think this happened for me in college was because I found some very accepting groups of people with whom I could unite around a common goal, in an almost pre-professional environment.

But there were a bunch of people on my floor freshman year who got sucked up into an entirely different social environment. They either pledged fraternities or sororities, or formed their own social groups that closely mimicked the ones they were used to in high school, which came with all of the expected drama.

So, advice for any younger folks: Just about every college has a student activity fair, where you can get to know all the clubs and groups and activities that are part of campus life. Try to find the ones that aren't 100% social, but maybe 25% social and 75% achieving some goal, whether it be putting on a musical or raising livestock or volunteering at a nursing home.

> Try to find the ones that aren't 100% social, but maybe 25% social and 75% achieving some goal, whether it be putting on a musical or raising livestock or volunteering at a nursing home.

Or, you know, studying. Which is ostensibly the thing why you're there in the first place...

(Obviously university is also a great time to explore and experiment, and you should do that. But especially if you're in the hard sciences, surrounding yourself with people who actually want to learn will do wonders.)

I have been through this and these are things that helped me improve.

1. Show up

Make sure you show up instead of avoiding people and events. Initially it can be difficult. You may be worried if you would mess up the conversation. You might be anxious you would run out of words to talk to. And it might turn to be a little embarrassing, that's alright. Doing more and more of those interactions kills your inner fear. Getting past your fear is the first step.

2. Observe & Listen

Observe how other people talk. If you like the way someone approaches others, copy it. Imitate and see how it works out. Be observant on how others feel while you talk. Are they bored? Are they eager to talk more? Are they trying to move conversation to some other topic? Usually shy people are within their head too much they don't notice the environment and react to it.

3. Find something common

I connect with a person by finding something in common between me and that person. It could be politics, religion, engineering, events, etc etc. Find things you both care about, conversation will flow naturally.

4. Give Compliments

If you like something about a person, give them compliment. Tell them details of what you loved the most. Be specific.

It would take time, through multiple iterations, you will improve :)

Best wishes, I am confident you will be successful.

Dead on. I was going to say something along the lines of "fake it till you make it." If you pretend to be socially comfortable long enough, you'll eventually convince yourself. But this comment lays out specifically how to do that.

i would add, "5. Ask questions." if you struggle to make conversation, find one thing about the person and ask them about it. how did they decide to do what they do for a living? what about that hat made them buy it?

I forced myself to do improv theatre. When I started, I was terrified, I was shy and doing that was definitely out of my comfort zone but the group I found was very welcoming and it quickly felt fun. The great thing about improv is that you learn to simulate different situations, you learn to be careful about your posture and mannerism as you take on different roles.

For someone who was as shy as I was, it was not easy to get started but I think it's the single thing that helped me the most.

Another commenter mentions toastmasters, I tried that but it really wasn't for me, some friends had great success with it though.

There's a book Improv Wisdom written by a former leader of Stanford's improv club that I found deeply insightful. I was looking into improv to address my social anxiety a while ago, sadly this was at the start of pandemic when everything shut down. Maybe I should go for it again.

The author of that book did a Google Talk about the book some time ago:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABw26imw4m4

If you like books, then “How to win friends and influence people” is great on this topic. The title is a poor choice. Don’t judge it by its title. It helps with shyness, among other things.

This is a remarkably all-out brave strategy. I'm sure you don't need the congratulations, but well done!

An also-effective approach is just to take the improv classes without ever performing on stage. That's all I did, but the lessons have stuck with me.

These days there seem to be more improv classes that are friendly to that, just people who like playing with one another. So if people are scared even by the classes, I'd suggest asking the instructor for something that's very beginner-friendly and not totally oriented on performance.

Noticing is the first step! A therapist can really help you as it sounds like a part of you is experiencing anxiety. Essentially you have developed a learned behavior and you have to unlearn it by replacing your habit with a new one. Part of that is say exposure therapy (meaning, just go out and meet people). It also helps to develop a framework and set of scripts for what to do which is where a therapist can come in handy (also for how you process the situation). We teach these things to kids with autism all the time.

If you need a script the easiest thing to do and understand is that people love to talk about themselves.

1. introduce yourself 2. ask their name 3. ask how they are or how their day is going 4 .... 5. continue to ask them questions as they appropriately come up.

Question 4 can be context dependent.. are you at a party of a mutual friend? Are you at a meetup? Basically use the shared environment to bootstrap the conversation. So a question could be like, "how do you know so and so" etc...

When I feel shy, I always seek out someone else seemingly shy and strike up a conversation that way.

It doesn't have to be perfect. And maybe take a friend with you who has more social awareness to help you. Tell them what your goal is.

Also if someone notices you are blushing and feeling flustered etc.. and asks you what's wrong, just take a breath and say that social situations are difficult for you but you are learning to work through them. Lots of people will be understanding. I say this as an adult. Sometimes you can be around immature folks who do not help the situation but those are people you don't really want to be around anyway.

That "and" of the "Just go out and meet people" is the part that my brain struggles with.

I can walk out of the door just fine, but my brain stops functioning when I try to think of things to do from there. I can likewise handle meeting new people if I somehow end up in a situation where that happens. It's just doing that intentionally that I have so far been unable to accomplish.

I would pick things that align with your interests. Go to a museum, go to a play that has an intermission, go skiing, pick up a club sport, meetups, cooking classes, book signing, improv class, music class, fishing class, board game nights...

Lots of things to try.

Everything I can get my brain interested in is a solo activity. I feel like whenever I try to even think about doing something that requires me to initiate contact with people, some unconscious part of me "resets" my thoughts and they just get stuck in a useless loop. On the rare occasion that I manage to override that and go somewhere, I am unable to engage with people even though I want to.

I don't hate interacting with people; quite the opposite in fact. I just for some unknown reason am seemingly completely incapable of initiating interaction with unfamiliar people (and even initiating anything with people I know is rare for me to do).

I would encourage you to spend time in those spaces with no intention to interact. Just go and spend time observing your thoughts and feelings. If you feel like you don't have much vocabulary for your emotions, two book I really recommend are Brene Brown's "Atlas of the Heart" [1], where a researcher names, describes, and compares the various emotions, and "The Emotion Thesaurus" [2], a writer's guide that includes a lot of description that can help with pattern-matching.

Once you have a handle on the feelings and what triggers them, I think you'll get some insight into the currently unknown reasons. I'd be you'll also have theories on how to work around it, but if not, a good therapist can help.

[1] https://brenebrown.com/book/atlas-of-the-heart/

[2] https://www.amazon.com/Emotion-Thesaurus-Writers-Character-E...

What things get your "brain interested", if I may ask?

The "doing that intentionally" bit is something I think you sort of have to roll with; some days are good, some days are bad.

I've all sorts of strategies, but if I have no explicit purpose at some event I struggle with getting out of the house, and I'm just not enough of a dog person to get a dog.

But if you go out on the good days -- which is all really anyone does! -- then people will remember you if you only pop in to some event briefly on your bad days.

If OP is making the effort to ask, I'd also toss out the option of finding a life coach.

In my personal experience and opinion, therapists seem to be... less aggressive / more tolerant of neurodivergent behavior, in a way that I didn't find as productive.

I was looking for someone who I could tell "I want to X" and would help me make that happen, less "I feel bad about my inability to X".

Decades of practice. What comes naturally to the neurotypicals at age 14, may take until middle age for a geek to learn by trial and painful error. Unfortunately where interaction with the attractive gender is concerned, awkwardness and painful error may be judged very harshly indeed, these days.

Accepting yourself as you are is required. Get over thinking you need to turn yourself into someone different. It took until about age 30 for me to fully accept who I am.

An occasional change of environment does help, since you can leave all that rejection - judged as the geek outsider - baggage behind and can start with a clean slate at your current social skill level.

A little bit of alcohol in social interactions can also help. I was strictly a nondrinker, but at one neurotypical type party I took the hint and had a few drinks. Not enough to get drunk, but enough to get comfortable.

On the other hand, if none of the above really apply, and you're just an introvert, then learn to live with it. You'll never turn yourself into an extrovert and you'll never really enjoy "working" an unfamiliar crowd to make new insta-friends. That's OK.

I've likewise gotten better with decades of practice, but my biggest problem seems to be that my brain simply doesn't have enough overall "social bandwidth" to function normally in-person interactions. If I'm paying attention to your body language or tone of voice or gaze, I'm not paying attention to your words, and vice versa. None of it ever became "automatic" like it seems to be for most people.

In my case something that happens sometimes: Meet someone new, usually the very high social skill kind that can charm anyone into instantly feeling they're their best friend, and have a long, stimulating conversation. A few days later I've forgotten all about it.

A year later, someone I've never met before (right?) hails me and knows all about me. Super awkward. Because they remember it all, effortlessly. Whereas I, social dues paid, forgot all about it again.

Try volunteering somewhere.

People are just happy enough that you're donating your time and effort that you can be more sure they won't mind your self-perceived inadequacies, even if you think they're noticeable.

Having repeated positive interactions in a pretty reliable context like that can help give you a better subconscious ideation of what new people think of you. Volunteering will also improve your self concept as a good person who is likable, and worthy of being treated well.

Thanks, will put this on my to do list this week.

Just please commit to it. I suspect organizations that use volunteers would rather have someone reliably there than someone who shows up a few times and quits.

That shouldn't matter unless the organization gives a clear expectation of the commitment level the volunteer would need to provide. Most places prefer any/all volunteers they can get (remember it's free labor and typically spawned by a person wanting to do something good for a community)

They still don't like spending half the time training people just to have them not come back. No one like a rotating cast of tech workers who show up just to make themselves feel better.

One observation I would make is that many of the people who are crucial to the organisation of social events are themselves socially awkward.

The instigator often is not, but they will be surrounded by people who are, and who need a little thing to do at the event so they can take part at all.

I found ways to be involved at a music festival for more than a decade -- the photography, the website, running general errands etc.

Going to social events as a photographer was an explicit tactic; camera as prop.

Find a way to help other people be social and they will find a way to include you that doesn't make you feel awkward.

Keep at it though -- merely getting to this stage where you're looking for techniques is a very positive step.

Also, a thing I learned from a kid who wrote a book on Aspergers that is basically true: if you need to hold eye contact longer than a brief moment, it takes most people a long time to spot that you're looking at the bridge of their nose, not their eyes.

Have you tried Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT)? It's best done with some professional oversight from a trained therapist to start -- especially because some issues may need pharmacological interventions -- but there are app-based options that can make it easy to dip a toe in daily practice.

Programmers tend to be quite rational people, and I've found CBT gave me a set of rational tools to interrogate my irrational feelings around social anxiety. It can feel like a dark cloud is hanging over you, and when you externalize the feeling and identify "fallacies" with those feelings then they become less nebulous and more manageable.

An example: a decade ago I remember sitting on a mostly empty BART train and feeling very low as I watched people get on and off at each stop. When I externalized the feeling it was simply "No one wants to sit near me", and once I'd written it down it became easier to interrogate -- I don't want to sit immediately next to anyone on an empty BART car either, why should I expect that others' decisions about where to sit are because of me and not because there's just plenty of space to spread out? Suddenly that feeling evaporated.

Once you've worked with a therapist and built up some habits, it becomes easier to identify those feelings on the fly and mitigate them. I rarely do written CBT journaling these days, it's mostly something I can react to in-the-moment through lots of practice.

Again: it's recommended to talk to a trained therapist and see if CBT is right for you (or whether you may need/want to try medication as well) but it's been one of the best self-care things I've ever done.

I've not really had any success trying to speak to therapists. Just getting an appointment feels like trying to draw blood from a stone. It costs more than my rent just to see somebody for an hour a week, and the waiting lists are literally months long. The one time I got to the end of a waiting list, I didn't check my emails the day I was pinged for it, and by the next morning my place had already been offered to the next person. This is all after a hospital referral for severe depression, I can't imagine how in the hell somebody could get an appointment for the kind of self improvement people talk about. Presumably by being very wealthy indeed...

I have been diagnosed with social anxiety, general anxiety, and depression. I've always felt socially awkward and shy. However, at 35 years of age I was finally diagnosed as ADHD-PI (predominantly inattentive). Treating that has basically eliminated the social anxiety and shyness, since it seems those existed through the lens of the untreated ADHD-PI. I'm still me and am surely introverted, but I can function in a social setting without feeling awkward or shy... the interaction feels natural and honest. While the folks around me noticed a bit of change, I noticed an enjoyment of life that I never seemed to experience before. I feel I am a better father to my children, which is the most meaningful part of the change to me.

How was it treated?

Learning to small talk is one of the most valuable skills a person can have in life and will allow you to connect with more people than you thought possible.

It all starts with very basic cues and the great thing is you can practice each and every day.

Start off by simply looking at e.g. the cashier at the store and ask "how's your day going?", or make a small quip about the weather e.g. "it sure is cold today, can't wait for Spring!".

Make this a daily practice even when you aren't feeling comfortable. Most people are happy to respond to simple friendly gestures and you'll slowly build confidence in your ability to connect with others.

Practice, practice, practice.

- Extremely extroverted introvert.

The phrase “small talk“ pains me. I never ask a question for which I am not interested in the answer, and I think if you listen carefully before you say something about the weather you might hear something deep and genuine that you would have otherwise missed.

Now I usually do ask how the other person is, but I am always listening for the real answer. I never ask it without wanting to hear what they say. (And if I’m feeling bad or don’t want to hear their answer I do not ask at all.) Usually they give automatic responses, but if they don’t, I try to give them the respect of questioning or agreeing with them in a way that they know they were heard.

Salient point about listening/reading their response, another tool in the social/life tool belt.

Re: weather, its not really about that, it's just opening the door that more often than not leads to a pleasant, random conversation with a total stranger.

I believe the significance or relevance of the "weather topic" depends on location. There are some places where the weather never really changes, and is indeed unremarkable, like southern California. But some regions can have drastic changes in weather, and some places the weather can kill. For example in the midwest US the weather can go from blizzard conditions to sunny and warm in 24 hours or a strong storm can destroy crops and ruin livelyhoods for thousands of farms. In tornado alley a "pop up" severe thunderstorm can throw off tornadoes and level towns. As someone who's lost family members to tornadoes, the weather is a topic I'm interested in.

> I never ask a question for which I am not interested in the answer

I also used to have this attitude, until I realized it was handicapping me. The point is to get a conversation going, and sometimes the way people are comfortable doing this is through the banal ritual of asking each other questions they don't really care about the answers for, and faking that they do care. It's illogical, but then again, so apparently is one's desire to just have a connection with somebody rather than nobody. Putting the pressure on yourself to only ask deep and genuine questions of people you don't even know is just going to result in you deciding you have nothing important enough to ask yet, and sitting in awkward silence, or never approaching someone at all. It's the conversational version of "the perfect is the enemy of the good."

> I never ask a question for which I am not interested in the answer

Where I am, its common to say "how are you?" as a stand in for "hello", that is, without the expectation of an answer or even further conversation if you're just greeting someone in passing. Some time ago, I started making a point to actually respond and ask them how they are back, I often do this to cashiers in shops for example. For the most part, they seem to appreciate it. However, lately, I've been caught off guard a bit because there's one guy that works at my gym and he always greets me like that and out of habit, I stop, answer and ask him how he is, but he's not expecting further conversation since he was just expecting me to say "hi". Made for some awkward pauses until I adjusted my behavior to match his :)

There's no such thing as "small talk".

All talk is significant.

If it is anything, "small talk" is talk that you don't mind other people hearing and joining. And if you think about that at a distance, it makes it very big talk indeed.

To me, "small talk" is mundane chit-chat that you do mostly to be polite or to break the ice. "Hi <neighbour>, weathers been awfully cold lately hasn't it? Yes, can't wait till summer. Did you watch the game yesterday? Anyway catch you later!" kind of things.

Yeah. It's small on that level.

But it's not small if that is the conversation that allows someone you both haven't yet met to feel at ease in joining in to chat with you. That makes it powerful, because it leads on to people introducing themselves, more common ground being found, etc.

Also, it might be the only kind of talk that can "break the ice" in the general case. I mean -- imagine replacing small talk with a deep question about politics or science or music theory. It couldn't work so well in general.

That is what I mean about its significance. Almost all of us exist solely because of small talk between our until-then-unknown-to-each-other parents, for example.

"Small" talk is the beginning of almost everything.

I see what you're saying. I agree, if it helps break the ice or is the "introduction" for further conversation, then it serves an important purpose. Even in the case of maintaining some kind of friendliness with a neighbour, that serves a purpose too, I suppose.

I travel a lot for business and end up riding Uber a lot. I go out of my way to stroke up conversations with the Uber drivers. I ask them about their music. How long they have been in the city. Some spots to visit. How they like driving for Uber.

The last question sparks a lot of conversations. Many do it just as a side gig and for flexibility. It’s the only time that you get to talk to complete strangers while they are work for a prolong period of time.

I'm the same way and I've had some of the most amazing conversations of my life with Uber drivers!

If anyone here wants some real life training on social interaction, take a once or twice per week part-time cashier job at CVS or Walgreens. Don't go for Walmart / Target, or a smaller convenience store. The middle ground of CVS and Walgreens is ideal, it has just enough traffic, but not too much. Do that for six months or so, and engage the customers sincerely. You'll have a couple hundred opportunities per week to talk to strangers and you'll get paid for it; they'll overwhelmingly be nice, older women customers, and many will appreciate the small talk.

You'll deal with shoplifters (confrontation). You'll deal with people that are upset and or having a bad day. You'll deal with mean customers occasionally. You'll deal with obnoxious coupon types that will drive you crazy. 97% of the customers will be pleasant, and in a slight hurry. You'll help solve their problems. You'll deal with communication challenges from time to time (slurred speech, health issues, different accents, etc). You'll interact with customers from a very wide variety of socio-economic backgrounds (from poor EBT card users to rich people, from teens to grandparents). So you'll see a broad spectrum of social interaction, in a quite safe environment overall.

One could take a paid phone-help job (support line of one type or another) to chat with lots of people, however the additional nice thing about the cashier job is that it's in-person. You also have a counter separating you from the customers (a bit of a shield for some introverts), and other employees in the store to back you up if anything unusual happens. The part-time cashier job is also not overly important to the store, so if you're working only one or two days per week you won't have very many other tasks put on your shoulders (which full-time employees will have).

Other advice here is good, but I think it's worth pointing out that psychology, spirituality, and religion contain the tools for working on problems like this.

Fundamentally: you are afraid, so you will want to work with tools that work with fear. That's probably most of them.

Prayer, psychedelics, meditation, any of the thousands of healing traditions, shamanic traditions, psychoanalysis, personal development methodologies.

What's important is to open yourself to the possibility that life could be a lot better, and that there are more avenues to achieving that than you can count. Stay curious and try things.

I got over my awkwardness waiting tables. You just gotta interact with people, all sorts of people. That and coping with chefs, who in my experience are frequently sadistic maniacs. It was tough, but I came out completely changed, and I absolutely loved that part of my life.

Toastmasters

Advantages include * can be in person or remote * safe, businesslike environment with well-defined structure * no need to talk about anything personal * supportive for the very shy - go at your own pace * also challenging for those who don't think of themselves as shy - but have trouble delivering a 7 minute memorized speech in front of a large audience judging their performance

That doesn’t sound like it would help with every day awkwardness, does it? I presume that’s what OP wanted help with.

Public presentation training (public speeches, presentations, etc) will help enormously with every day social awkwardness, especially if you do it regularly and in varying ways (don't do the same thing, same speech, to the same people over and over again; if you do the same thing over and over again, you may just be training a sort of fake social muscle memory).

It's quite rare that you can conquer a public crowd but you can't deal with mundane every day social situations (I'm sure there are exceptions, it's just a rare combination).

The memorized speech part isn't ideal over time though. To get started that's fine, however it should be a written speech and intentionally improvized after a few experiences with doing it; and then it should be entirely improvized (and a bit shorter) occasionally as well.

I was in toastmasters for several years and it cured my shyness. People now compliment me on my ability to tell stories for instance. It's effected a noticeable change.

It really does. It's regular practice with supportive people.

And it's structured, so if you are shy about sudden surprise situations, it can be comforting to know what is expected.

It's not a panacea, but it's easy to get started, accessible and designed to help you be more comfortable talking.

Try it, if you want to talk to people more.

> And it's structured, so if you are shy about sudden surprise situations, it can be comforting to know what is expected

That’s what I mean, I believe people like the OP tend to be concerned about daily life, random encounters, completely unstructured situations. Just not sure how much public speaking carries over.

I think it’s quite possible to become a great public speaker, singer, actor or similar, and still be shy in every day life. It seems like largely separate skillsets to me. But I’m no expert.

I too used to be awkward, anxious, and not finding within me the possibility to show my true self in new social contexts.

A few things that made a difference:

1. Moving. I moved many times in my twenties and each time I had new neighbors and coworkers was slightly easier. Practice works, and it was a relief the first times to start fresh with new people. I was also following a path that I had actively chosen for myself, and this gave me more self-esteem and made it easier to introduce myself. Especially moving into the city made a big difference with many shops and offices around me. Here was all these fancy-dressed people roaming there in whose company I often felt self-doubt. And now I was seeing them from my window while I was eating breakfast/dinner. In their rush to and from work they seemed to drop the mask of self-esteem and looked vulnerable instead.

2. Getting kids. This caused my brain to go "I don't care anymore what you think about me since my kid is the most important thing right now, and I'm too tired from too few hours of sleep to feel awkward anymore."

3. Age. With age most people have gone through some hardships (losing loved ones, psychological health, bad relationships/friendships, etc). With this comes a greater value on just being your true self and acting accordingly. When you can show some vulnerability, it takes some stress of others that can acknowledge to themselves their own insecurity and vulnerability. Now they know they are not alone, and that maybe there is nothing wrong with them since you too exist.

I don't know if only the gym helps, I think all kinds of diverse experiences help getting a sense of belonging among others (which is maybe different from self-esteem?)

That said, there is nothing wrong with feeling discomfort in some settings. You have your innermost values and you will not be fully compatible with everyone. Don't let others limit you or take advantage of you. Make the choice to be you and live fully on your terms.

#2 is so true. I think it also is grounding; my purpose is clear and clear to others. I don’t have to question my reason for being at all.

Martial arts helped me a huge amount. You spend a lot of time doing very silly looking things in the company of others. There's a lot of physical contact with strangers. You teach and coach each other. You also gain a huge amount of confidence in yourself, that grows as you get better. It's a social activity without having the burden of being a team sport.

Been a sensei for about ten years now, so I'm also used to standing in front of large groups of people and delivering instruction, demonstrating techniques on a regular basis, planning lessons with other instructors.

Take one up, and don't fret about which one is the best. I started with TKD and Aikido, but now train in Karate and HEMA. It really doesn't matter which one you choose, just find a class you're comfortable being at.

Your milage may vary depending on which martial art you choose. In a very traditional studio, you may know your fellow students only by rank. None of this is to take away from the parent's point. Even in that environment, the stuff about physical contact and being awkward in front of others, all of it is true, and all of it is beneficial. Just don't expect that you will necessarily find friends in the same place you find your social confidence.

Yep, I was talking about social confidence and not necessarily making friends. You might very well make friends at a martial arts class, or just learn to deal with people you don't actually like, but have to fight with in a friendly way. I've had really good mates break my ribs, and people I don't actually like hug me at the end of a bout. It all helps.

Self-confidence should not be confused with self-esteem.

Self-confidence is inversely correlated to the power of your superego.

Your superego is trying to protect you against harmful social mistakes. It strengthen itself when you are hurt (socially) and is usually modeled after the paternal authority and is often perceived as a kind of internal moral figure.

Gaining self confidence is the same thing as loosening the grip of the superego.

You can do that with alcohol, to some extent, but there are many undesirable side effects, including worsening your self confidence in the aftermath.

My advise would be to experiment doing "risky" things in a controlled environment where you won't be hurt.

There is no magic trick, unfortunately, success is what lead to self confidence.

(That is, teaching your superego that you can do social things without shooting yourself in the foot)

In my younger days I was a lot like you and I personally solved it by getting into martial arts. Training for a few years and finally getting your black belt gets you confidence in several ways:

- It gets you fit, which is a good thing for attractiveness :-)

- It trains you in leadership - you start off as a student but by black belt you're running classes, or at least parts of classes

- It gives you confidence that you can defend yourself, but more importantly, if necessary you can defend your family, your friends, your SO, etc. This changes the way you move through the world. Note: you don't suddenly become invincible, you also learn the humility of encountering people in training that are still far superior to you, but these become less and less over time.

- To get your black belt is transformative, and the equivalent of trial-by-fire/coming-of-age rituals that have faded from our culture: you have to work hard for years to get to that point, and you have had your attitude and skills genuinely tested and evaluated before being granted each belt. And it was all you, no-one else can do it for you, you can't buy it, there are no shortcuts. This is one of the few things you can achieve that you can genuinely call all your own, and it feels good, and it is a massive boost to how you see yourself in the world.

Basically if you find the right martial art you get all the benefits of going to the gym plus learning a valuable new skill, and transforming your outlook of yourself along the way.

Some tricks that helped me:

- practice in situations with low stakes (for example there are social situations where everybody meet for a short time and never again - these are perfect cause even if you panic and make a scene - it's no big deal - for me it was fantasy conventions - added bonus is that there's stuff to do and a lot of people there are awkward too)

- practice the part you can deal with first (for example I had problems with home parties because at the beginning there will be only a few people and talking with them would put a lot of attention on me which I found hard back then - so I would go to bathroom for a moment and go back when others started talking about something and the attention was shifted - this made it much easier to just experience talking with random people without having to deal with the hard part at the beginning)

- after you're fine in one context - challenge yourself in other contexts (I still have some situations I never practiced or that last happened when I was still the weird teenager in high school - and I can be very awkward in these situations which usually takes me by surprise - but they happen very rarely now)

- expose yourself on purpose - ultimately the goal is to be able to behave naturally without pretending to be someone else. When you're feeling good enough with someone - telling some of the "awkward stories" is a good way to get there - you show them your real self and "disarm" them preventively (vast majority of people won't attack you about stuff you share with them as a funny story even if it's really weird).

Just stop caring so much about what you and others think of you. I lot of shyness and awkwardness can be due to overwhelming self-awareness and a misinterpreted projected view of what others think of you. People don't spend their day thinking about their interaction with you. People interact and then move on. If they don't, then they're dealing with the same things.

Just be and stop thinking about being.

1. Young people are very concerned about what others think about them

2. Middle aged people stop caring what others think about them

3. Old people realize that nobody thinks about them

I would actually recommend dropping this line of questioning. It's perfectionist. And treating it as a problem that needs to be solved (in effect treating you as a problem to be solved) just puts extra scrutiny/attention/pressure on it that will make it worse. It's just a habit that you will grow out of naturally with more experience around people. And that will happen faster if you forgive yourself, accept yourself as you are, and accept each situation as it is and each person as they are. A lot of situations are inherently awkward, will be less than perfect, and will bear no resemblance to the snappy scripted dialog in TV/movies. Wishing things were different from how they are, is 9 times out of 10 where the problem itself comes from - in your case being in an awkward situation, and being hyper-aware that it's awkward. Younger children are awkward but don't know it, and most of them seem happy enough. Forget about it. Everybody is at some level of gracefulness. Is everybody "awkward" who isn't perfect? Even Olympic figure skaters probably stub their toes on their coffee-table legs.

The other thing to realize is that the awkwardness is an inward-looking and (to apply a sort of judgmental slant on it) ultimately kind of self-indulgent habit. People around you are probably just as nervous and awkward as you, and seeking signs that it's okay and safe to be themselves. What signals are you giving them? You could be a leader to them, showing them the way. Be curious about them, reach out and ask them how they're doing, take an interest in them and what they have to say. That's the best way to forget about you, i.e. literally lose your self-consciousness. If nothing else it will at least take the spotlight off of you for a few seconds while they talk, which might be a relief. But people really appreciate when you take an interest in them, and they also appreciate (this will sound a touch cynical) the opportunity to talk about themselves. You will be well-liked. Although in the long run just don't give too much slack to people who latch onto you as a "good listener" and never give you a chance to talk! They should be willing to let you talk sometimes. And by the same token you should be ready and willing to share about yourself, not just asking questions about others like an interrogator. But in general, start with asking about and caring about others; that's the foundation of every meaningful relationship anyway.

Disagree with the first graf, totally agree with the second! I sort of like your point about just not worrying about it. But I found that I could improve my self-confidence by working at it, and it was ultimately worth literally millions of dollars and much more happiness to me. Also meant that I was always able to meet wonderful romantic partners and I am… not good looking at all.

I was voted shyest kid in my high school class. My brain would go white during any attempt at public speaking, and I was super awkward around any new people.

Much of it came from being extremely sensitive. So much worry about what other people thought, and that any esteem in which you may be held could be destroyed at any moment.

A couple things changed: I joined team sports and programming competitions, which strengthened my self-esteem and confidence. Eventually, I grew to understand my lizard brain's reactions could consciously override them. For example, several years back, I was invited to speak at a conference in China, and my first thought was "NOOO" but then I realized I'd regret that and when else do you get to see a new country on someone else's dime? So it's worth optimizing for opportunity. It's kind of like the improv rule. Always say yes, and see where it goes.

But it never completely fades. I'm a seasoned and respected engineer and I still get sweaty hands and an elevated heart rate even when giving status updates to my team of five years.

ADHD medication.

I didn't even realize those things would be connected. Turned out a lot of - not all, but a lot - my depression, anxiety, and general weirdness was tied to ADHD.

edit: I feel I should also note I went through a few years of therapy at one point and that also helped, but I can't understate that having ADHD diagnosed as an adult and receiving medication changed my life.

Here's what I did and/or do.

1. I constantly ask trusted friends and family members if I was blundering in social situations. I asked my wife this evening, when our daughter had her boyfriend over for dinner. I didn't blunder. I asked anyway. I will ask during an event, especially if it lasts for hours. Ultimately when I blunder, I reprogram how I will respond when that situation arises again. While that could be a thousand little actions, I find I can generalize things, and that makes it easier.

2. Put yourself in tough social situations. I did fashion photography for 8 years as a hobby. I worked with 20+ models in the DC area, and did 2 shoots in NYC. Yes it was all about getting the photos, but to do that you focus your attention on the model. This book helped: "How to Win Friends & Influence People" by Dale Carnegie. Ultimately, the intimidatingly gorgeous woman in front of you and your camera is a regular human who comes from some place, has family and friends, and has interests. When you work with someone like that for 8 or so hours, you need to make her feel comfortable.

3. Work with some successful and highly extraverted people, whether in business or in a volunteer situation. I was working with and being mentored by someone who owned the world. There were no limitations with him. He could go anywhere, do anything. Obviously he didn't actually own the world, but his presence said he did. This was in a volunteer situation. This person was very hard working, wealthy, an overall good person, but took no garbage from anyone. He was also very smart. Actually there were a couple others like him in that volunteer situation - power, money, capabilities, responsibilities, accomplishments. Learn from them.

Good luck! This is what I did. You'll always feel socially awkward, but if you work at it, you can power through it in the tough situations. Hope this helps!

Well it sounds like you already made the most significant jump, which is realizing that social skills are just a skill, and like all skills they can be improved with practice. So practice. Put yourself in situations where you're a little out of your comfort zone and focus on small improvements (can I introduce myself to someone at this party? Can I make friends with someone at this party? Can I have a conversation with my seatmate on the plane? etc...).

Remember that most people instinctively want to like you. Let them. But sometimes people are closed off. Do not let that get to you. Just stay chipper and move on.

I used to be the shy nerdy kid in school but most people in my life now wouldn't believe me if I told them that. I made a really deliberate effort to gain confidence in my social skills.

It's dated and embarrassingly titled, but How To Win Friends And Influence People is a really good, genuine book on this.

This is a complex problem, and no single answer will be a solution.

A few miscellaneous tips:

- Join a local ToastMasters chapter: it will force you to (1) speak to many people at once that you aren't familiar with, (2) force you to improve public speaking (which is closely related to #1), and (3) increase your confidence with speaking in general.

- The gym, like you mentioned, is one of the biggest single things you can do. Not even for the physiological transformation, but for the chemical dump that happens in your brain when you exercise, which has 'afterglow' affects that can last for days. I cannot recommend CrossFit enough (or just class-based functional fitness training in general).

- Get lots of quality sleep. Good sleep won't make you confident, but lack of sleep will definitely make you less confident over time (increased anxiety, decreased communication skills, etc.)

I was quite weird in my younger years. I think it's because I thought the real me was unacceptable, so I hid my true thoughts and feelings and spent all of my time putting on an act.

I think the point things started to change for me was when I started listening to other people, rather than sit there worrying about what everyone thought of me. I stopped going into new social situations thinking "oh fuck, what am I going to say?", and instead thought "if I become interested in the other person and what they're talking about, an endless well of conversation will open up".

Through doing this, I got to know people better, and I realized that everyone is kind of weird in their own way. This made me more comfortable in my own skin, and more willing to share the parts of myself that I was ashamed of.

I did the opposite by accident: I was fascinated by older kids when I was young, and they thought I was charming. Then in my 20s most people seemed repetitive, and I had some real social headwinds.

I'm trying to recapture some of that spirit, finding the interesting part of any given person's experience (which is rarely the topics that people small talk about). I'm not naive, some people are more interesting than others, but regardless you have to be intentional.